CHANTAL KOZAR [00:00:00]:
I have a lot of amazing friendships and women in my life and circles that I have either created or are a part of that I get a lot out of in the sense of like, therapy. But sometimes I find it hard to take that role, the hat off of that role of leader. Like I might be in a friend group where I feel very safe, but sometimes it's almost like I can't be too vulnerable because of how people will perceive me.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:00:45]:
Our guest today, Chantal, is an integral part of The Mothertree Collective, a supportive community and resource center for expectant mothers and new parents here in Kelowna, BC. She is also an energy worker who offers intuitive one-on-one sessions to help her clients release energetic blockages by reconnecting the physical body with spiritual essence.
As her friend, I can say she's a real trailblazer. She's unafraid to sit with discomfort and even less afraid to talk about uncomfortable things. She's a natural-born leader, drawing people in and making them feel safe and supported. You can always count on her to say it like it is, to dig beneath the surface, and to think outside the box.
But sometimes the burden of leadership is heavy, and Chantal is finding herself somewhere she's never been before. As she'll tell you during the episode, she's looking for a mentor, someone she can learn from. Someone she doesn't have to serve. But her search for a mentor seems to be the catalyst for a new and unexpected level of awareness.
RON THIESSEN [00:01:51]:
Hey it’s Ron Thiessen. Welcome to another episode of The Human Being Project by The Change Evolutionist, where my daughter Janelle and I, explore the difference between being and doing.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:02:04]:
In a world of constant distractions, sky-high expectations, and the relentless pursuit of more, we examine what would happen if we made space for more being and less doing.
RON THIESSEN [00:02:16]:
Chantal, welcome to the podcast and I'm going to let you go ahead and tell us what you'd like to discuss today.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:02:23]:
Thanks for having me. I see myself as a bit of a leader in my circles. Actually, I really love listening to podcasts, and through listening to a podcast, I just recognized a little bit of a void in my life around a mentor or mentorship. And so I know that you're also a leader and a mentor and I just wondered, Ron, do you have someone like a go-to like a mentor?
I think for, like, I have a lot of amazing friendships and women in my life and circles that I have either created or are a part of that I get a lot out of in the sense of like therapy that is therapeutic. But sometimes I find it hard to take that role, the hat off of that role of leader. Like, I might be in a friend group where I feel very safe, but sometimes it's almost like I can't be too vulnerable because of how people will perceive me.
I think I often relied on my dad to bounce stuff off and I could really trust him to be honest with me. And so he passed in 2018.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:04:05]:
And so I've been oscillating. Like, I've been reflecting, I mentioned this - I thought of this question maybe a week ago. So I've been kind of ruminating on it and where it stands with me. And, you know, there's two messages that have kind of anchored me. I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Zach Bush.
RON THIESSEN [00:04:37]:
No.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:04:37]:
He's an American doctor, but he has done a lot of work with people in their end of life. And he works a lot with the terrain theory of disease. And anyways, he's just really wonderful to listen to. He's very balanced in his masculine feminine energy. And he said something once, he said, "There's a lot of elderly people, but not a lot of elders." And so I was like, yeah, I really feel that. I feel that in our society. And I feel like I would like to see myself as I am entering this next stage of life, like the fifties, where I've done my mark and now I just want to be in this place of mentorship.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:05:22]:
And so then it's like, do I seek out someone? Do I pay someone for this? I don't have any grandparents. And so as I've been thinking about this, I've been thinking, well, would this be like someone like my dad, a masculine figure? Because I do find that I've noticed that I do tend to gravitate to men. Like, you know, Eckhart Tolle teachings and Michael Singer and a lot of masculine teachings.
And maybe that's where this whole...you know, I'm not religious. And so maybe people that have this connection to God feel that, right? And maybe that's where the paternal masculine connection leads me to, especially since losing my dad. But then I oscillate to another quote from Neil Donald Walsh that was, you have everything within yourself, everything you need within yourself.
And so then, I go into, okay, maybe it's a part of me when I'm in nature and I feel connected to the planet and to source, God, whatever word you want to use. And then is that what I'm looking for, mentorship-wise? Right? So anyways, those are just where my brain has gone in the last week thinking about this.
And then the last piece of it has been where do I fit into all this? Right? So if I see myself as someone who would like to be an elder, not an elderly, but an elder who mentors, like I do work with moms quite a bit, breastfeeding moms, that's work that I'm very passionate about. And I see myself as a mentor to that group.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:07:26]:
And so why can't I gravitate to my mom as a mentor? But it's different. Like, my mom is very holds space, very gentle, unconditional love. So that's like a maternal mentorship. So, yeah. I don't know if you can make sense of my rambling.
RON THIESSEN [00:07:54]:
Yeah, for sure.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:07:55]:
That's where I'm at right now. So I'd just love to hear your thoughts and maybe share - like if you would be willing to share - your journey with an elder or mentorship. And does it have to be someone older? Could it be someone younger? It doesn't have to be so defined, I think.
RON THIESSEN [00:08:18]:
So maybe I should just lay a couple of groundwork things that I'm sure you've heard of before, and you probably know these things. But as you grow as a person, you want to make sure that you're surrounding yourself with people who excel at things that you want to excel at. You need to bring those kind of people into your life. And the more that you grow in leadership and the more responsibility you have in leadership, I think it's been my experience with people that I've talked to that are in positions of leadership, and it's certainly been my experience in my life that the more that you grow in leadership, the more that you find you're going to draw things from different people at different times.
So having like a mentor is not - some people do, but I think it's a rare thing that you have just one mentor and this is the person that I follow and whatever they say that I should do, that's what I'm going to do. There are so many facets of leadership. And like you were just pointing out, so where you have a passion about breastfeeding moms, and your mom has this openness and this gentleness in terms of you can look at her as an elder, so to speak, and say that there are things there that I want to model, but she doesn't have the passion for the things where I'm feeling like I'm mentoring in. She doesn't have that passion.
RON THIESSEN [00:09:41]:
And so obviously I can't ask her to mentor me in that area. But you could ask someone who has a similar passion to you, not necessarily about breastfeeding moms, but somebody who has a real passion to do some sort of thing in community, because breastfeeding moms is a community. Is there somebody in your life that is really passionate about doing something else in community? I'm passionate about teaching older people how they can live productive lives at the end of their lives, or whatever. You can learn a lot of things from a person like that.
For me in my life, I definitely had some key mentors at the beginning when I was younger, in my twentiess and my thirties. And I was pretty focused on a couple of them and asked them a lot of advice and learned a lot from them.
RON THIESSEN [00:10:35]:
But I was pretty rapidly thrust into a strong leadership role and I really had to learn a lot of things on my own. And sometimes I was in a situation where even the mentors that I had didn't really know what to tell me to do because it was something unique. It was just different.
The mentors that I had at the beginning. Maybe I should just clarify that, they lived in the States. Because I had studied there and I'd spent some time there. And I was now up in Canada trying to do something that they knew what I was trying to do, but they didn't know how to advise me how to do that here in Canada. And so I had to learn a lot of things on my own. And what I found then, as my leadership skills grew, I just found that the people that I was looking to for mentorship varied.
RON THIESSEN [00:11:24]:
I have found that most of the time I have two or three or four people that I'm looking to for leadership or for mentorship at the same time. And some of those people know that I'm asking them to mentor me, and some of them don't. So, like, when you talk about Eckhart Tolle, okay, so he doesn't necessarily know who Chantal is, but you're looking to him for mentorship and leadership. And I have people like that in my life.
But you will also find that because you're asking the question, I think that you are ready to vault to a new level of leadership. And that means that you obviously have gathered the things that you need to gather in order to understand your leadership role to this point. And now I think it seems like you're going to vault to a different level, and so you're going to need different inputs, and I don't think you're going to get them from one person. I really agree with this statement about, we have lots of elderly people, but we don't have elders.
RON THIESSEN [00:12:30]:
I see this in the aboriginal community where they still really pay attention to their elders, and their elders are important. And I see how the weight of what they say is taken into deep consideration. It's not just pushed to the side like we see in our society, our sort of Western society. We don't really think about elders like that. And I think it really is something that we've lost.
There are always people who are willing to be mentors and leaders, but because I think you're vaulting to a new level of leadership, you've got to look bigger and wider than maybe what you've thought before. I think if there are people, if you have someone in your life that you go, man, if they would mentor me, if I could just ask them some questions, that would be so fantastic. But they're unreachable.
RON THIESSEN [00:13:26]:
I'm intimidated by them. I can't reach them. That's the person you need to be talking to. And you need to do whatever you need to do to reach them. If it's Brene Brown or if it's Eckhart Tolle or if it's any of the other people that you've talked about.
Because what you will find is that people that are in those kinds of positions where they're sort of like there's name recognition. They're a household name or kind of everybody knows who they are. Most people are too intimidated to talk to them. And so what's happening with their gifts of leadership and mentorship, working, like, one one-on-one with people - I'm not talking now about material that you can disseminate to the regular population - but their gifts of mentoring and working one one-on-one with people and knowing something about the person that they're teaching or leading or mentoring. Those situations become very rare for them because nobody is bold enough to approach them and say, I really want this from you.
RON THIESSEN [00:14:28]:
Now, I'm not actually talking about...some of these leaders have leadership programs that are expensive and they're charging for access. But when that happens, that's more like teaching or training. You're going to take advantage of sort of a packaged thing that they do. This is my leadership training. John Maxwell, I'm thinking of him, for instance. He has all kinds of stuff on leadership, and it's not cheap. And if you were wanting to be working in tandem or having any kind of access to him, it's going to be expensive. But it's going to still be a program that he's created to teach leadership.
RON THIESSEN [00:15:12]:
So when we're talking about mentoring, we're talking about more of a personal connection, unless it's a distant thing. Like I said, I have some of those in my life where they would have no idea who Ron Thiessen is. But nevertheless, they're mentoring me because I'm observing them, I'm watching them, and I'm listening to what they do.
But if you want to have someone who can help you come to this next level of leadership, I think you're going to have to look now, because of the level that you're at, I think you're going to have to look for somebody that intimidates you and where you say, why would they respond that way to me?
But you need to begin surrounding yourself with people that are at that level because that's the only way that you will be able to get there and maintain that level of leadership. So you don't have to say a name, but is there anybody that you're thinking of right now where you said, yeah, I've wished for years that I could have some connection with them, and for whatever reason, you haven't reached out.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:16:19]:
I mean, I have many people that I would...yeah, I mean Gordon Newfeld and Gabor Mate would be people that I, as I was parenting, I've always wished they were right beside me. Right? And Gabor Mate is really instrumental in shifting how we view emotion and addiction in the body, so yeah.
And I know that he has programs for his stuff, but yeah, it actually never occurred to me to just reach out to someone like that. Because for me, it almost feels like...I think my dad had a very good friend of his that he grew up with but was just like, he called him his guru. And so it's more someone to have conversation with versus I'm going to work through a program. That less resonates with me, but yeah, someone who could really challenge me that way, or Michael Singer, sure. I feel like, man, that would be pretty incredible. But yeah, those are pretty...to me, I would never have thought to reach out to those people specifically.
RON THIESSEN [00:17:52]:
So what I was going to say about that is that these people, when they get to that level where there's a certain level of recognition that people know who they are, and so people become intimidated to talk to them, they end up many times being in a position where they have so much wisdom and so much knowledge to share, and they don't get to share it. Because there's no ears at their feet, so to speak. Because everybody's just too intimidated to ask. Too intimidated to...
I was speaking at a convention for realtors many years ago, and it was their annual awards banquet. And of course, they were handing out the awards for all of the top realtors. And the person who had done the most business that year, you know, through the roof of business. And so he's kind of a household name within that real estate organization. And so before I was speaking, I asked this question. I said, how many of you know who is the person that won the award this year for Top Realtor? Everybody raised their hands.
RON THIESSEN [00:18:58]:
There's like 400 people there. Everybody raised their hands. And I said, so how many of you have gone and spoken to him this last year about what made him so successful? Nobody.
So there's the point. See, the person obviously has lots of things that they could share with people about tips, tricks, things that you can do. What are you doing to be successful? They could probably talk for a long time, but nobody's asking the question because they're too intimidated. They sense that person is competition rather than feeling like, I could really learn something from this person. So I know that's not the position that you're in.
RON THIESSEN [00:19:38]:
I know you're saying, there's so much that I could learn, but you may be hesitant to ask the caliber of person that you need to learn from right now. And so you've just got to set aside that inhibition, make some connections, and don't give up!
Because I know you're a pretty firm believer in that what you need is going to show up. So whatever you need, push on some of those doors, and the one that needs to open for you is the one that's going to open.
And you might be amazed at how it comes together. They might invite you to be part of maybe a mastermind or something that they're running, or it could be a lot of different ways that it might happen, but I think that's probably the level at which you need input right now.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:20:28]:
Yeah, and honestly, I don't necessarily want...it's less for me in a professional way and more of a spiritual mentorship that I'm more after, I guess.
RON THIESSEN [00:20:43]:
So who are the most influential teachers in this area for you right now? So, I think you mentioned Eckhart Tolle.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:20:55]:
Yeah.
RON THIESSEN [00:20:56]:
Michael Singer?
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:20:57]:
Yeah, I mean, I gravitate to different people, and that's the beauty of the podcast world right now, is that you can actually listen to their conversation and it's quite personal often.
RON THIESSEN [00:21:13]:
Okay.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:21:15]:
Yeah. Honestly, I wasn't thinking about that. So in this moment, those are just the names that are coming to mind, but I'm sure that there's more.
I have a little bit of a block that it's like all men. It bothers me a little bit that it's all men. That the names that are coming up are all men. Yeah. For some reason, it almost hurts my heart that I don't right away have women's names. So yeah, I don't know why that is.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:21:55]:
I mean, I've met some really amazing women, but it has felt more like a sisterhood where you're all on the same level, and maybe that's just the way that women see each other. Not I don't know, it seems like for men, there's this disconnect where we're on a different level, whereas with women, maybe because women can be a little more vulnerable, we tend to really identify with very similar and we're not quite separate.
RON THIESSEN [00:22:32]:
Right.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:22:32]:
So maybe that's a good thing. That the women that I love, I mean there's certain women that I really revere. Like, I really love Esther Perel. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she's an incredible relationship therapist, and I love listening to her. And yeah, that would be someone I'd certainly welcome having conversations with.
And on a spiritual level, I've really connected with the energy of Mary Magdalene, actually, because I grew up Catholic and there was really no feminine in that religion, at least from the teachings that I received in the churches that I went to growing up. It was very masculine, and it just never resonated with me until I found Mary Magdalene and I started to learn about her. So I feel like I'm kind of teeter-tottering between, you know, masculine is kind of up here and then feminine...
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:23:35]:
Like, I'm learning about in our culture, there just hasn't been as many role models on the feminine side. Right. Even though there's been tons. It's just that we're not exposed to them as much. And I think maybe that's where my sadness comes, is that we have really lost out on that to balance things out. And so then I'm thinking, okay, well, here's my opportunity to go step into that. Right. I just have more questions than answers.
RON THIESSEN [00:24:14]:
Do you think that the lack of women role models is because you haven't researched it or because they're not there?
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:24:24]:
The only way to find them is to research them! They're not there. You don't hear about...and also there's a bit of a view of how women, they're very passive and kind, but so they're not like, change-makers in the way, but they are! They are because they hold the space, they allow you to be you, right. So it's a different energy.
And also the women, the goddesses from all the cultures, you know, if we're talking about Isis and Hathor and Kali, like, they are not that. They're very fierce. They're very elevated in their emotion. And so in our culture, there's been a lot of, like, oh take a chill pill, like, oh, put them on barbiturates or whatever. They're a little crazy.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:25:27]:
And so I feel like there's been this huge suppression of women and how we're supposed to be. Like, am I supposed to be zen like Eckhart Tolley and never get angry? That doesn't sit right with me to strive for that 24/7, because I'm also a woman. I'm also emotional, right. So then do you go, like, yeah, there's just a lack. There's a lot of women, but I haven't kind of anchored myself into anyone yet, I think.
RON THIESSEN [00:26:02]:
Okay, so do you think there's a possibility that they're there and you just don't know who they are?
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:26:10]:
For sure. Yeah, for sure. And I think they're just, maybe I'm just looking for them to be showing up in the same way as the male figures, and they're not.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:26:26]:
Have you considered that your life is full of women - you've said that your life is full of women. There's a lot of sisterhood. So maybe you're just missing that masculine energy. Maybe it's not about whether a woman is more suited as a mentor or a man is more suited. It's for you personally, Chantal, that your preference might be to balance a little of your life with some masculine energy in a man. Is that possible?
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:26:56]:
There you go. That's why we love her. Yeah, totally! You're totally nailing it. You're right, because, honestly, the other day I had a conversation with my chiropractor, and I felt almost moved to tears because he was actually hearing me.
So maybe that's, you're right. Maybe I feel heard and nurtured by women, but I feel like men are not hearing us as much. And when a man is actually listening and hearing you, that's what I'm missing.
RON THIESSEN [00:27:38]:
So did you feel like your dad heard you?
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:27:44]:
Yes. Yeah.
RON THIESSEN [00:27:46]:
So maybe that's another void in your life that you're looking to fill as well. To Janelle's point, maybe that kind of masculine energy in a masculine body, you're looking to fill that thing that your dad did for you for all those years, and that's what you feel like is missing.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:28:06]:
Mmhmm. Yeah.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:28:08]:
But I think that it's healthy to have a balance of both masculine and feminine energy. And because there's a lot of sisterhood associated with women in your life and women supporting each other, we're not always tapped into our masculine energy when we're in that place.
I feel like if we get too far in one extreme where we want to make sure there's space for women to be mentors. Now, you're concerned, you said, about not thinking of a woman first, but you're forgetting that that masculine energy in a man is crucial. Like, why else are there men and women on this planet? We need each other, right?
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:28:51]:
So there's no shame and there's nothing wrong with wanting to have a male mentorship energy in your life. Whether it's more than one or just one male mentorship energy. I don't think that that's saying anything about the state of our society if you crave that. I think it's healthy. Well, I have my dad as a mentor, right?
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:29:19]:
Just like you had yours. So what would happen if I didn't have that male energy mentorship? There would be a big void there for me as well.
RON THIESSEN [00:29:29]:
Hmm.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:29:30]:
Yeah. And I think it's really nice to talk about it out loud because you have all these thoughts going on in your head, but it's really nice to just put it out on the table and notice where I was holding shame there. Right? And so now that it's like to surface, I can release that. So thank you. It's really powerful for me to experience that. Just acknowledge that, a), I had the thoughts, and b), that it's okay and I don't have to push away what it is that I am craving.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:30:11]:
Right. So thank you.
RON THIESSEN [00:30:13]:
Exactly. I want to highlight on something you said before that you said in the environments that you find yourself in, you can't always be vulnerable because you're in leadership. And so that maybe stymies a little bit what you're able to do. And I think what you're saying is you're looking for that also when you're talking about having a mentor, you're talking about having someone that you can be completely transparent with and not worry about the fallout.
But I'm wondering if that point...this is something that I've just been learning the last year or so. The vulnerability of saying as a leader that you don't know it all or you allow people to see the human side of you is actually far more powerful than if they perceive you as having no faults, so to speak.
And I'm wondering if there's also some work that you're...because I'm talking to you as if I'm assuming when I listen to you that you're going to a new level of leadership, okay? So everything that I'm saying to you is based on that assumption.
RON THIESSEN [00:31:28]:
And if you think that that assumption is not correct, well, then take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. But the greater impact of leadership demands greater vulnerability. I'm sure you've heard that talk by Brene Brown about the vulnerability. And that's very powerful what she says there about being the gladiator in the ring. And you can't be listening to the cat calls coming from the crowd. You've got to be paying attention to those people that are in the ring with you. And that kind of vulnerability, saying, man, I'm hurt, I'm bleeding. I'm not in a good place here right now.
RON THIESSEN [00:32:07]:
It enhances your leadership rather than detracts from it.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:32:11]:
Yeah. And I mean, for me, it's my work to not feel like I have to be responsible for how people are going to react to my vulnerability. And so, yeah, that's just going to come with practice. And I know that this shoulder pain I've had for ten years is that. It's me holding on to this. I'm responsible for people around me's happiness. I manifested three people in my household who are generally not happy just to show me that it's not my responsibility to make them happy. And so the more I release that, actually, the more space there is for them to experience joy.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:33:12]:
I have a lot of opportunities to practice that, and I do know that that is part of my work, is to be more vulnerable, so, yeah definitely.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:33:22]:
I also think that I feel here in the group of us, the two of you are leaders. I know you as a leader, Chantal, and I know you as a leader as well, Dad. But I think as a person who isn't really a leader, I would look more towards leadership in other people, I think that you guys misunderstand what is expected of you as a leader.
Like, for example, I've heard you say before, Dad, that you need to have the answers. People are coming to you for answers, and you need to provide them. And Chantal, I feel like that happens with you as well, because we hang out in the same circles. I think that you feel some sort of responsibility because you tend to have the answers, that people are then looking to you for the answers.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:34:11]:
But as you and I have discussed, Dad, your gift seems to be to take people to a place where they can then discover those answers for themselves, and that's more empowering than you giving them the answer, right?
RON THIESSEN [00:34:24]:
Right.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:34:24]:
So, Chantal, in your group circles that you're in, whether they're predominantly women or whatever, sometimes you might think that there is an expectation for you to have the answer. I know sometimes we joke that you're a guru or you have all the answers, but there isn't a need for you to have them. You don't have to be the wisest person in the room. Nobody expects that of you.
But I think the more leadership responsibilities you take and the more people you find turn to you for guidance or for comfort or for wisdom, then you think, oh, okay, so this is a mantle that I carry now of constant wisdom and leadership. But those very same people that you offer words of wisdom to can also offer words of wisdom and support, which is part of that whole sisterhood thing. But I would just say to both of you that that concept of leadership, and if I've misunderstood, Chantal, let me know, but I feel like you feel a responsibility to deliver wisdom.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:35:26]:
I mean, for sure, sometimes. But yeah, I totally feel what you're saying, and I feel like every stage we get to, we use these tools to get us there, and then we have to take it off. Right? And so I kind of feel like I'm at that, you would call it death and renewal. Right?
So it's like, now I feel like I've proven myself or whatever, so now I don't need to keep doing that. So now, that's why it feels wrong, because it's no longer necessary, and I feel like I'm ready to take that off. But then you're in this transition, which is where I'm at right now, where maybe humanity is at right now, this transition of, well, if I'm not that, then what am I? Who am I if I'm not that anymore?
And so I think that's the uncomfortable space that I'm in right now. And I am, I'm totally noticing. And so I said to my son, I was like, I don't want to just give you advice anymore. But it's a pattern, and I've done it for a long time.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:36:47]:
So if you catch me doing that and you haven't asked me, call me out on it. And now every day, I don't think I asked for your advice, mom. When it's like, can you put your socks in the basket? I didn't ask for your advice, mom. And so I'm asking my family to help me release that role, a little bit. Soften a little bit on the pendulum. So, yeah, you totally nailed it, Janelle. So it's nice for me to come to a place where I can just rest and just listen, and I don't have to give any information or feedback or anything. And that's uncomfortable, but I'm working towards it being comfortable. Right? Yeah.
RON THIESSEN [00:37:38]:
So are you saying that you are well, it sounds like you have been doing it for a little while if you said this to your son. So this is something that you're working on. And what does that feel like? Does it feel like you are losing control or giving up control? Or does it feel like, well, this feels so good to be able to release this? I've just been waiting for the opportunity to let this thing go.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:38:06]:
I wouldn't say it's one. I would say it's all of those.
RON THIESSEN [00:38:09]:
Okay.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:38:12]:
I would say that it's a process. There's times where it feels really awesome to just listen and to be in that space, and then there's other times where I really want to say something and I'm holding back. And that feels really good because I know that that person can use the space to figure it out on their own. And I'm just here as a sounding board, and that feels really good. But sometimes I'm getting impatient, and I want to just tell people what to do.
RON THIESSEN [00:38:48]:
Especially when you feel like, you know, what to do. Right. You know, what they should do.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:38:52]:
And I recognize that I'm making an assumption that I know what's best, but I don't know what's best, actually. They know what's best, and maybe they need to make a big flunder mistake, and I need to allow them to do that, especially with my kids. Right. I'm pulling back where I'm fixing things for them. I want them to be able to find their own way and solve their own problems. Right. So it feels good to your ego to be able, like, well, you're amazing. You solved my problem!
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:39:26]:
No, it feels icky now to me to be in that space. So I want to let go of that. So, a big time of transition, which is like the caterpillar. I'm in that cocoon right now and trying to spread the wings. But it's nice to recognize that it's okay that I would like someone to talk to who holds that masculine energy for me. Yeah.
RON THIESSEN [00:39:57]:
Given what you've just said about trying to let go a little bit and not feel so obligated to have the answer, how does it feel to you then, when I'm saying to you that I think you're ready to vault to a new level of leadership?
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:40:16]:
Well, yeah, I don't really know what that means. I don't know what it means professionally or yeah. Like I can see that there's potential for that, but I don't really have a vision of what that looks like yet.
RON THIESSEN [00:40:39]:
Does it make sense to you in the context of what we're talking about, that you could be more of a leader with less control?
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:40:47]:
Mmhmm. For sure.
RON THIESSEN [00:40:50]:
Does that concept make sense to you?
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:40:52]:
Yes.
RON THIESSEN [00:40:53]:
Okay. I think that's really all I'm saying, that I think you are growing into a new level of leadership where you realize that maybe you have thought before that being a leader is taking everybody's hand and helping them through. And I think where you're going is that understanding that a leader sets the example, and then other people follow. You don't have to take them by the hand. They either follow or they don't.
In the same way that you're looking for a mentor, so that person is not necessarily looking for you, but you're looking for them. And so you're taking the initiative to say, I need a hand to hold. I need somebody to talk to, I need an ear to talk to, or whatever, and I'm on the hunt for that.
RON THIESSEN [00:41:37]:
And they are just living their lives, being the leaders and mentors that they are, and you will find them.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:41:43]:
And I think I just recognize in talking with you that it's not necessarily going to be one person. I feel very passionate that if I'm open to it, the opportunity will present itself as well. Like a few weeks ago, when I was talking to my chiropractor about my relationship, and I felt like he really listened, and I felt very moved by that. And that really would have been the role of a mentor, even though he's not my mentor, he's my chiropractor, right? But, yes, I think we tend to want things to look like it's in this container, and that's what it looks like. And our world isn't like that anymore.
RON THIESSEN [00:42:32]:
You just want to surround yourself with people who are good at things that maybe you feel like you're not good at and you want to learn about, or things that you feel like you're not good at, and you don't even know if you'll understand them.
When you think about somebody like the President of the United States, for instance. That person is a person just like you and me. They have 24 hours in a day. And the responsibility that they carry and the decisions that they have to make, they're important decisions, but it's impossible for them to know everything they need to know in order to make that decision properly. They have to rely on other people who have the information, and they rely on multiple people for that kind of information and insight.
And I think that's what we're talking about here, that you just need a different range of people around you that you can talk to, that you can look to for leadership and mentorship. And I'm sure that in the end, you do need at least one person that you can talk to who is at a higher level than you are in leadership, but that you can talk to them. They will hear you, they will see you and they will talk to you with answers, with the view to improving your leadership capabilities.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:43:48]:
But not with answers, because leaders think they have to provide answers, and they don't. I don't think that, necessarily, that she'll find somebody who gives her the answers, but she'll find somebody who creates a space safe enough that she will discover the answers on her own. I think that's what we all crave, right? Just that safe space.
Like you said, Chantal, you felt seen, you felt heard by your chiropractor. Because he created the space. He probably didn't have deep, profound words of wisdom you'd never thought of before. He just created a space where you felt safe to kind of let it go, to admit you're struggling or to admit whatever you're feeling, and then just that release in itself, the safeness of being able to speak that way with somebody who is disconnected from your life otherwise, it just opens up your own greater self awareness and personal insight I feel like.
CHANTAL KOZAR [00:44:42]:
Totally, I agree. Totally. That's what you guys have done for me today is just listen and hear me and allow for me to process just what's going on. And even the fact to acknowledge that you have a void fills half the void in itself. Right? So thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
RON THIESSEN [00:45:10]:
Thanks for making time to be here. Yeah, we appreciate it.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:45:15]:
Join us next week for a follow-up with Chantal. I connected with her a few weeks after our initial conversation to see where she's at since we spoke. What shape is Mentorship taking in her life? Did she reach out to Eckhart Tolle or Michael Singer? I think you'll be surprised where she's landed on the whole Mentorship thing. See you next week!
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:46:08]:
What did you think of this episode? Head over to the private Change Evolutionist Community Chat to join the conversation. Find the link in the show notes.
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Ron Thiessen is a practicing psychologist and educator. To apply as a guest on the podcast please visit thechangeevolutionist.com/podcastguest.
