JANELLE THIESSEN [00:00:02]:
Welcome to the Human Being Project, a podcast hosted by my dad and I that's an exploration of finding meaning and purpose in who we are rather than what we do. I'm Janelle Thiessen, a keen observer of human interactions and behaviors and an advocate for being, for being present, being authentic, and staying open.
RON THIESSEN [00:00:23]:
I'm Ron Thiessen, a psychologist, educator, and facilitator, and I'm on a personal journey to find a balance between a lifelong habit of productivity and the presence or being state that nurtures my spirit and seems to have the greatest impact on the world around me. In each episode, Janelle and I explore ways to make space for more being and less doing, to focus on spiritual energy, intuition, and the relationship between heart and mind so we can positively impact the world through our conscious doing.
Niall Mackay [00:01:01]:
So I love this. One of my biggest pet peeves is when you see a sports star win the Super bowl, for example, and he's like, I want to thank God God did this. And you're like, well, what about the other guy who also believes in God? So his God wanted him to lose, but your God wanted you to win? This makes no sense.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:01:20]:
Our guest this week is Niall Mackay, a comedian, humanitarian, and entrepreneur. I met Niall through a Facebook group about podcasting, but I'll admit that the sole reason I asked him to join us on the podcast was because, in our interactions, he expressed some pretty strong resistance to the idea of spirituality. I was intrigued.
Now, I feel like I didn't ask him very targeted questions during our discussion here, but I am curious to know if you, the listener, think or feel similarly to Neil about the concept of spirituality. Do you feel the need to choose between science and spirituality? Is one wrong and one right? Stay tuned to the end of the episode, where I'll share why I think we need both. Also, if you're sensitive to profanity, you may be triggered a few times while listening. I did omit some swear words, but I left others in because I felt they were an integral part of Neil's self expression. You'll see what I mean.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:02:20]:
They are just words, after all. So without further ado, let's meet Niall.
Niall Mackay [00:02:26]:
I'm Niall Mackay, the podcast guy, self proclaimed, and I'm a podcast producer. I run a business that produces podcasts for people all around the world. I offer coaching as well, and I've just kind of obsessed with podcasting. It started my own back in 2019 as a hobby because I'd been listening to podcasts for your younger listeners when podcasts were on ipods. There was a thing called an ipod, and it wasn't connected to the Internet, and you had to download broadcasts, and those broadcasts got called podcasts. And I started listening to them in the early 2000s myself. I guess I've just been a podcast kind of fanatic since then. I eventually started my own as a hobby and then lost my job during the pandemic.
Niall Mackay [00:03:16]:
So I worked for not for profits for most of my career, lost my job during the pandemic, and decided to take that business full time.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:03:23]:
That's awesome. And you also do not just podcasting, but you do all kinds of coaching and audio help. Right. You have other aspects of the podcasting.
Niall Mackay [00:03:32]:
Yeah, that kind of came about just naturally, which was really nice from posting on things like discord, which did we meet on Discord or Facebook? I forget.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:03:41]:
No, I think we met in a Facebook group for Descript.
Niall Mackay [00:03:44]:
Yeah. So just being helpful on those groups and talking to people, I've been able to coach some people as well, which is amazing because I think we all have that. People call it the impostor syndrome. I don't really like to call it that, but I didn't realize how much of an expert I was, I guess. I mean, I hate even using that term, but you never feel like you know that much because there is always somebody that knows more than you. And so I never really classified myself as an expert or promoted myself like that as much. But then I realized, like, oh, I use this program all day, every day. I know a lot of ins and outs and tricks and hacks and how to do things.
Niall Mackay [00:04:20]:
And when you start to speak to people who don't use it all day, every day and really struggle with some of those things, and it happens all the time where if you know, you know. And if you do know, it seems super easy and simple. And then I've even seen things like answering questions of how do I host my podcast? Like, how do you share your podcast about the world? And I'm like, that's such a stupid question. Everybody knows that. And then my wife will be like, no, everybody doesn't know that. You know that. So you think it's simple. Then I realize the more you know, you can actually share that with other people.
Niall Mackay [00:04:56]:
So that's how the coaching came about.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:04:59]:
Yeah, I love it. And you're an excellent coach, and you're right, you do provide value for complete newbies, which is what we were when we found you, and it was very helpful for us, for sure. I've already implemented some of the tricks that you told me to implement I don't know if you've noticed, but just a few little things.
Niall Mackay [00:05:16]:
I'm excited to see the changes, though, that you've made, and hopefully it makes a difference.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:05:19]:
Yeah. For those of you who are interested, Neil did a podcast audit of human being project on his podcast, which is called. It wasn't the 7 million Bikes podcast that you did it on, though.
Niall Mackay [00:05:30]:
No. Smarter podcasting.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:05:33]:
Smarter podcasting. That's right. And so we had a little sesh there, and he gave us tons of tips, half of which I haven't implemented, but many of which I have.
Niall Mackay [00:05:42]:
That's good, then, if you've done half.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:05:44]:
Yes, that's good. I'm proud of myself. But we have you on the podcast today for a totally different reason, because I just wanted to make you as uncomfortable as possible, and I have heard and followed up on who you are and what you do with your life and in the community that you live in. You live in Vietnam, right? What part of Vietnam do you live in?
Niall Mackay [00:06:05]:
I'm in Saigon, or the official name is Hu Qi Min City.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:06:09]:
Oh, boy. I won't even try to say that, but you did a good job.
Niall Mackay [00:06:12]:
Thank you. It's about the only Vietnamese I can speak.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:06:16]:
And how long have you lived there for?
Niall Mackay [00:06:18]:
I'll be seven and a half years now.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:06:21]:
Now, you're not originally from Vietnam because your accent suggests otherwise. Where are you actually from?
Niall Mackay [00:06:28]:
My accent and my skin tone as well. I'm originally from Scotland and left there in my early 20s, moved to America, went to, then ended up in Australia, then ended up in New Zealand and then Vietnam. So I haven't lived in Scotland for about 20 years, and look how strong.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:06:50]:
Your accent is still.
Niall Mackay [00:06:51]:
So this makes me laugh every time you're revealing yourself to be somebody who's never been to Scotland, am I right?
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:06:57]:
No, I've been. I've been to Edinburgh. I was there for the military tattoo. Yeah.
Niall Mackay [00:07:01]:
How long were you there for?
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:07:04]:
Well, I was there for, like, three days.
Niall Mackay [00:07:06]:
Yeah. Definitely never been to Glasgow, because there's two types of people in this world, and I sometimes meet them back to back, and one of them will meet me and hear my accent and say exactly what you said. Oh, you've got such a strong scottish accent, and 99 times out of 100, they've never been to Scotland and maybe met one person from Scotland. Then I'll turn around and meet somebody else who hear my accent and say, oh, my goodness, your accent is so soft. You don't sound like you're from Scotland. Where are you from? And that person will have been to Scotland, spent time there, talked to scottish people, and will fully comprehend and understand that my accent is actually very soft.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:07:44]:
Oh, well, my apologies. You have the softest scottish accent I have ever to.
Niall Mackay [00:07:51]:
It's because I've lived abroad for so long, so even I don't know if you watched the Beckham documentary on Netflix and Poshpice's wife was on there. And even things like their accents have completely changed. Like, it showed you footage of them from when they were younger. And when she was younger, she was straight out of London and sounded like, yeah, I'm from London. And then now she talks quite posh because that's just what happens. And so when I was in university, I had college friends tell me that I had the strongest glasgian accent they'd ever heard. And this was from other people from Glasgow. And so I was shocked because I'm from a working class family.
Niall Mackay [00:08:25]:
So we're not posh, but we're not also word. What's the pc world? I want to use the word scummy. We're not scummy.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:08:35]:
I don't think you're going to find a pc word.
Niall Mackay [00:08:37]:
Yeah. You know what? Like, some people in Scotland have really horrible, horrible accents. Like, really guttural and disgusting. So my family actually have really nice accents, but they do have strong accents. So going to university and then being told that my accent was really strong was big wake up call. And then I moved to the US, and nobody could understand me. Literally, people would look at me and just. I would see their eyes glaze over.
Niall Mackay [00:09:05]:
My favorite was one time I asked this person, oh, what's the weather going to be today? And they just looked at me and they went, yeah, that's not a yes or no question requires that question requires an answer.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:09:22]:
That's awesome.
Niall Mackay [00:09:24]:
So very quickly, I realized I had to slow down. I had to enunciate my words, I had to pronounce them, I had to take breaths and slow down. So I do still have a strong accent, I'll grant you that. But it is much more easier to understand. It's a lot softer than it could have been. And especially when I do a podcast interview, it slows down even more. And turn on my radio voice, I guess.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:09:48]:
Flip the switch.
Niall Mackay [00:09:49]:
Yeah.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:09:51]:
Okay, just so everyone knows, you are also a stand up comic, right?
Niall Mackay [00:09:55]:
Well, I'm actually on a break right now. I'm actually retired at the moment from comedy. I've taken a break. Yeah, I stopped earlier this year and I may never do it. Again, but we'll see how it goes.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:10:09]:
What? Why? What happened?
Niall Mackay [00:10:12]:
Like most kind of industries, there's a lot of internal politics. And on the surface, comedy is such a funny thing. But in the background, I actually was organizing shows. So I was more than just performing. And so there becomes lots of little clicks and people. The biggest thing, it's so sad. The biggest thing is like money. People would talk about me behind my back, thinking that I was making lots of money when I wasn't, was barely making any money.
Niall Mackay [00:10:42]:
And then when people didn't get paid enough, they would want more money. When you have a good show and they see lots of people there, they're like, oh, you made so much money, I want more. But when you have a bad show and there's nobody there, then they still want money, but nobody was here. How do I pay you? Generally, most of it came down to money. I met some amazing people, like some unbelievable people, but there was some other really toxic people that just after I was doing it for about four years, and eventually part of it was I wanted to focus on podcasting full time. So I was organizing shows, and just to put on one show took about 8 hours of work. So that was 8 hours of work away from podcasting. At one point last year, I was doing eight different gigs, different types of jobs, from teaching to pharmaceutical marketing to creating content, online comedy, podcasts.
Niall Mackay [00:11:34]:
So I was just spreading myself too thin. And part of that was post pandemic, just trying to make some money. Like I said, I lost my job. So you're just trying to scramble and survive, basically. But then this year it was like, right, no, I'm going to say, start saying no to stuff and just focus on podcasts.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:11:50]:
What is so magical about podcasting that you can't get enough of it? Tell me, why the love affairs?
Niall Mackay [00:11:56]:
So I remember seeing this in another podcast interview years ago, and they thought this was so funny. And I said, I think listening to podcasts makes you smarter. It does, right? So I just always obsessed with the medium, like really enjoyed it, always listened to it at the gym or on traveling. And then as I said, eventually I was like, I'm going to make my own one. And regretted it ever since. No, I'm kidding. I haven't regretted it. I have three of my own.
Niall Mackay [00:12:20]:
All three of them are on a break right now. But okay. I've worked or worked on about 25 podcasts in total.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:12:30]:
Wow, that is a lot. You know what? I don't know how you do it, because for me, the process of speaking on a podcast is fine. Whatever can happen in the moment, that's fine. It's the editing and post production, even the pre production of a podcast episode, arranging the guests and figuring out the questions and all that jazz. It can be so time consuming. Like, I need an assistant.
Niall Mackay [00:12:54]:
Lots of people do have them. They're called virtual assistants. I mean, I did the math one time, and for 1 hour podcast episode, which you just think, oh, I'm going to make a podcast episode in total, including booking the guests all the way through to scheduling it, posting it, writing the show notes, the titles, then promoting it is about 10 hours minimum for one. So that's one day of work. So when you like, I'm going to start a podcast like I did. I'm going to do a weekly podcast. I had no idea what I was getting myself in for. But what you're mentioning in terms of, you don't know how I do it.
Niall Mackay [00:13:26]:
So what I do is the post production stuff. So I don't manage the podcast per se. So I don't book the guests, I'm not involved with the recording. I do the best part. I get sent the audio, and then I love it, because then I get to take that audio and then make it something beautiful and take out all those mistakes and make it sound really nice. So that's what my passion is now, is taking that audio and then making it into something that the listener will have no idea how much has gone into that. And really, one of the podcasts I work for is called a paranormal chicks. And recently they get letters sent into them or emails and read them out.
Niall Mackay [00:14:06]:
And this one person was like, oh, we have a podcast like you. And we're just like you. We don't edit it. We just put it out there. And the hosts were like, no, we do edit this podcast. And at first I was so offended. I was like, what do you mean they don't edit this podcast? You think it sounds unedited. But then I was like, because their podcast is really raw.
Niall Mackay [00:14:26]:
Like, they laugh a lot, they swear, they talk about sex and all of that kind of stuff. So I can imagine why they thought it was unedited. But so at first I was like, offended, and then I was like, no, I'm really proud.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:14:38]:
That's cool that they listen to this compliment.
Niall Mackay [00:14:40]:
Yeah. And they don't realize that this is completely edited. So I even make a bloopers reel for them once a month. And the bloopers are absolutely hilarious. And I mentioned it in the bloopers because I had a bit of audio to the bloopers. Be like, to the person who said that this podcast isn't edited, here's the proof that it is very much edited, and there's like twelve minutes of bloopers. And the craziest thing with podcasting is that even when you make your own podcast, you put it out there and then you have no idea what people think. Like, when you do the difference with stand up comedy, when I tell a joke on stage, it either gets a laugh right away or it doesn't.
Niall Mackay [00:15:16]:
So you know right away if what you've done is good or bad or you need to do it better. But with a podcast, you sit in a room by yourself half the time, record this, send it out to the world, and then you have no idea what people think. And for me, the biggest buzz in my life is when I've had people tell me to my face, like, I listen to your podcast, and every time I'm surprised, I'm like, oh, wait, what? Oh, I forgot. I forgot that even though you make this thing for people to listen to, I forget that people listen to it.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:15:47]:
Okay, well, let's segue into something else before we get to the real topic. I want to talk to you about. Let's talk about your involvement in your community. What drove you to do that, to be involved in that way? First of all, what did you do?
Niall Mackay [00:16:00]:
Right. So my proudest achievement ever is I helped raise $60,000, I think it was $69,000 to help build a school for underprivileged children here in Vietnam.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:16:10]:
That's exceptional. That's awesome.
Niall Mackay [00:16:13]:
Yeah. Thank you. This day of my life, I was there for the beginning of the project. We went down and seen the school. We went down when it got knocked down. It's about four hour drive away. And then we went down on the last day and we helped with painting, which I always feel like such a fraud because I did nothing to help build the actual school.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:16:30]:
You were there for the camera.
Niall Mackay [00:16:32]:
Yeah, exactly. Me and some of the bigger donors who helped make the project happen were there on the last day, like, painting it cameras, and you're like, what a fraud? But it was still amazing. But so I guess to go back from a kind of working class family, all my family are involved in services, helping people. So whether that's the police, ambulance service, doctors, teachers, even working in a supermarket, still helping people. Nobody's in banking, nobody's in trading or anything like that. So everybody does something to help people. So I guess that's just, I can't think of anything specific, but that's just the way I was brought up, I guess, was you help people, I guess. I mean, I don't remember anything specifically, so I studied sport and exercise science, and the kind of goal with that was to work in health promotion and help people exercise more, because basically one of the biggest problems we have in the whole world is the lack of exercise, sedentary behavior.
Niall Mackay [00:17:38]:
And so if we can increase that, if we can eat better, we can. So many good health outcomes. There's so many good financial outcomes. That was my grand big plans coming out of university. And then I traveled the world and fell into other jobs and different things and trying to find myself and find what the hell I'm going to do with my life, but I wanted to do something. And then I met these girls when I was traveling in Australia who'd done street fundraising. So I don't know if you have it in Canada. I assume you do when the people stand with the clipboards on the streets in the city center, and then you join up.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:18:10]:
I haven't seen that.
Niall Mackay [00:18:12]:
Definitely happens in the US and then obviously happens all over the UK. So they're looked down upon, and I used to look down upon those people. They're the most annoying, scummy people in the world. They get paid to get you to donate to charity. They stand in the middle of the town center and they're always cheery and they're always happy, and they want you to do something. So I hated those people. Yeah. And then I met these two lovely girls when I was traveling from England, and they told me how amazing the job was, how rewarding it was.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:18:41]:
Oh, it took two lovely girls to do it. I get it.
Niall Mackay [00:18:45]:
They're actually friends. Still friends to this day. So I ended up in Melbourne, went for a job interview, and it turned out that the job was to do street fundraising, something I would never thought I would do in my life. It's so out my comfort zone. You've mentioned I'm a comedian and a podcaster, but I used to be so shy. It was incredible. I would never do anything like that at all. Not going back too far, but typical story.
Niall Mackay [00:19:12]:
I was bullied all through school, so then I was so shy, didn't want to do anything. So for me to do street fundraising was just so out of my norm. But I did it, challenged myself, hated it, but loved it. And then ended up doing that for about four years and became really good at it. Came to Vietnam for a year, teaching English, but then job opportunity became available to work with the school that I worked at to work in their charity department and help underprivileged children gain access to education through volunteering, raising money, and doing events. So, for me, it was like a dream job. I got to run events in the community, got to meet lots of people, travel around, and raise lots of money. And one of the biggest projects we did was raise the money to build the school, and we did it.
Niall Mackay [00:19:57]:
And so proudest day of my life was going down there, seeing the school being built still there to this day. I think that answers your question, why do I want to help out in the community? I think because it's just the right thing to do. Right? I'm not a banker.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:20:12]:
I do find it interesting that when I first met you, I had actually hired you, right. To assess our sound quality for our podcast. But the moment that I started interactions with you, you were very clearly a generous person. You were more than willing to give of your time. You offered to edit a podcast episode for free. You felt so bad for me for all the time I spent. So I'm just saying that it's in your nature to be a person who gives and is thoughtful of others. And I know that you're kind of brushing over that.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:20:46]:
You're, like, very matter of fact about a timeline and how it all happened and how you found yourself there. But do you feel at any point through the service that you've done, either in communities or the gift that you give to other people to support their businesses and so on? Is there, like, a heart connection that happens there for you, or are you very disassociated with all of that?
Niall Mackay [00:21:09]:
I think I'm a bit disassociated. I think I just do it. I don't really overthink it too much. That's probably not the answer you want. I get, like, these fleeting.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:21:17]:
I don't need an answer. A certain answer.
Niall Mackay [00:21:19]:
I get fleeting moments, maybe, where you get, like, the goosebumps or something like that, but not too often, to be honest, I think I am very. I do things without thinking. Yeah. I just do it because I do it.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:21:32]:
Okay, so you and I have talked about this before. You said with periods in your texts, you said you are not a spiritual person, period. You said you don't discuss spirituality, period. And, you know, I'm just itching to know why. I'm just itching to know why. You said there's history in your family, right? There's religious history in your family. Is that right?
Niall Mackay [00:21:53]:
Okay, not history. My uncle is a minister.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:21:56]:
Oh, your uncle is a minister. But were you raised in the church?
Niall Mackay [00:22:01]:
But we stopped going to church at five years old, thank God, and never been since, apart from weddings.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:22:08]:
Never darkened the door since?
Niall Mackay [00:22:10]:
No.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:22:11]:
Okay. Well, I don't know if you know, but both my dad and I, we're not religious people at all. Well, dad might be a little bit religious. I'm not sure. Me for sure not religious, but I would consider myself a spiritual being. And the reason I consider myself that is because I see myself as connected to human beings through more than just our brains, more than just our physiology, more than biology, connected energetically. Now, if I say that to you, that we're all connected energetically, are you just like.
Niall Mackay [00:22:41]:
No, no, not at all. I mean, I've been there. I've been through stages. I understand what you're saying. I get it. And maybe it's true. I would love it if we are all part. I mean, because we're all made of stars, right? So we're all made of the same atoms, molecules, everything.
Niall Mackay [00:23:03]:
Well, I read something recently, like, every molecule in the world has been. Why is that again? Has been peed by a dinosaur or every body of water in the world includes, like, dinosaur pee or something like that. It's just trying to show that everything gets reused and nothing is created or destroyed. Right. It just changes from one form of energy to the other. So, yeah, it may surprise you. I have been through phases. I do understand all of this, and I have been through spiritual phases, probably more so when I smoked a lot of marijuana and less so when I stopped smoking marijuana.
Niall Mackay [00:23:41]:
I definitely think that helps you connect to your spiritual self.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:23:48]:
I think lately the trend is mushrooms. So, like, get on the mushroom train, buddy. You're a little behind.
Niall Mackay [00:23:54]:
No, mushrooms are amazing. They're my favorite. The best nights of my life. I've been on mushrooms again, that was a long time ago.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:24:00]:
Oh, okay. Well, the recent brand of mushrooms apparently are the ones that just really empower that spiritual connection.
Niall Mackay [00:24:08]:
Well, finally they're doing. I've seen this Research about prescribing mushrooms, or LSD, to treat PTSD in veterans and for depression and all that stuff.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:24:17]:
Depression?
Niall Mackay [00:24:18]:
Yeah, it's absolutely mental. I was just in the states this year, and you just smell weed everywhere, and you're like, this shit used to be illegal, and people got locked in jail and lives ruined, and now you're like, yeah, and everyone's smoking it everywhere, and life goes on, and there's no problem. But. So I understand what you're saying about we're all kinetic energy, and I've been through those phases where we're all connected. And I don't completely discount it, but I think as I've gotten older, so I've been thinking about it a lot, because obviously you've sent me these questions before. And the question I think was, why are you not spiritual? I think was the question. And even this morning I've been thinking about it. I've been going over it again and again and I think the answer is, I just don't feel it.
Niall Mackay [00:25:04]:
And just like you feel spiritual, I can come up with all these answers. I can go through my life history, I can come up with scientific answers. If you follow Ricky Gervais, and I'm a big fan of Ricky Gervais. And, and, you know, I've read lots about why we are just nothing and we're going to die and we're going to go into the ground and nothing's going to change. And there's so many arguments that I could sit here and tell you why I don't believe any of that is true. I think human beings need to search for meaning. I think this life that we've been given, this consciousness, is the craziest, batshit thing in the world, that we are aware of who we are. And so as being a being who is aware of who they are, we need to make sense of what the that is because we're like, whoa, that's my hand.
Niall Mackay [00:25:51]:
What is that? And so we've come up with spirituality, which then morphed into religion, and then now we've gone, well, now we have spirituality. So it might be true, but what does it matter?
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:26:05]:
Well, maybe the definition of spirituality is what's hanging both of us up here, because it's just a word, right? But for me, the word spirituality is a concept that perhaps isn't best articulated with the word spirituality. Like when you say you have goosebumps when you go to an event. And for example, my husband and I, we built homes in the Dominican Republic. So when we were there with a team of people building these homes with cinderblock and the dedication day happens and the family is there, they get to move in. And the team that we're all sweaty and dirty and we just persevered together for a whole week, we had the craziest chills and connection, collaboration. To me that's spiritual, but to somebody else that might be something else, it might just be like, oh, we just connected or we collaborated or whatever, and that's fine. It doesn't have to be called any particular thing. But I think what I'm asking you is do you feel safe to explore things on a deeper level? Like other than with say, your spouse or whatever? But I'm just talking about life, like your perception of life.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:27:14]:
Do you feel safe or comfortable to explore life on a deeper level beyond what's funny or beyond what's, I don't know, interesting in the moment? Are there layers? Are there layers to neil?
Niall Mackay [00:27:28]:
Well, to go back just 1 second, what you said there about getting the chills or feeling good about doing what you're doing, whether you did it or I did it, and you were saying, is that spiritual? I would just call it physiological. It's just science. It's just the physics of your body. It's like, oh, you did a good thing, heals goosebumps to make you feel nice because you did a good thing. I very much have changed in terms of, I'm just more of a believer in science, and maybe part of that's come from, I've been through the conspiracy rabbit hole and come out of that, thankfully, and then seen the conspiracy rabbit hole happening and how anti science it is and how stupid it is. So maybe part of my reaction to that is to be like, I just believe in science. And science has given us everything we have, what we're doing right now, what we're talking into, what we're recording ourselves with, our cell phones, what we're wearing. Science has given everything.
Niall Mackay [00:28:19]:
And then suddenly a whole bunch of people with no qualifications were like, I don't believe in that. And you're like, wait, what? And let's be honest, a lot of the new age spiritual movement was a part of that because I was a part of that. Believing in healing crystals and homeopathy and all this bullshit that you can't deny that spirituality is tied to that movement and those types of people. And so I think I've gone so far the other direction of I believe in science. So the chills is just physics, it's just physiology.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:28:55]:
Oh, man. I totally think there's a bridge, though, between science and spirituality. Like, I actually think there are two sides of the same coin. I think that both are extremely valid. We actually had a guest who hasn't aired yet, but she brought that balance to both of those for us because she was talking about something very woo woo, very energy based, but she was also talking about science. And I find it so sad when one has to discount the other. It's like, you have to be team science or team spirituality or team whatever is the opposite of science in people's minds, but they work together, I think, quite beautifully. You don't see that.
Niall Mackay [00:29:37]:
One thing is I'm always open to changing my mind, and I've changed my mind many times in my life. One of the things that frustrates me the most is when you see people who are so staunch in their beliefs that they will never even counter other. So I'm not saying I'm not like a staunch, like, I will never change my mind. I may change my mind at some point in my life. At this point in my life, I don't understand it and I don't know enough, and I don't pretend to know enough. So that's why I was like, what intelligent answer could I give about not being spiritual? And then I was like, I just don't feel it. But then I was like, this is a feeling. Like I told you, my uncle is a minister.
Niall Mackay [00:30:17]:
His daughters, my cousins are doctors and lawyers and super religious. And I don't understand how you could be a doctor and religious, I don't understand it. And so many doctors are, so many scientists are religious. I do not understand it. So I know we're going away from spirituality, but obviously religion is an offshoot of has come from spirituality. You believe in something bigger than yourself.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:30:41]:
Yeah, that's the crux of it. Yeah.
Niall Mackay [00:30:44]:
So I don't fully understand how you can believe, like you're saying. It's two sides of the same coin. I'd love to hear the argument for that. I don't know what the argument is at this point right now. I don't understand because to me, they are so mutually exclusive, because nothing in science has ever proven anything spiritual. There's no scientific basis for it at all, as far as I know. Don't get me wrong, I'm in love with my wife. I fell in love with her, and I've been in love with her since I met her twelve years ago.
Niall Mackay [00:31:15]:
And that's a massive connection. But at the same time, I'm like, yeah, we like each other because we love each other, because we have the same interests, those physiological things. I don't know if I believe that there's some physical, sorry, metaphysical reason why we are in love with each other. And so when you start to evoke the heart and all of this stuff again, it's just like, stuff that can't be proven. It's kind of like nonsense.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:31:44]:
Your reaction is so strong that it makes me wonder if it's like just pushing a button. It feels like it's just pushing. It's a trigger for you.
Niall Mackay [00:31:53]:
Maybe a little.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:31:53]:
Again, you're so hostile about it. You're like, that's just bollocks. That just doesn't make sense. That's stupid. It's not possible. And so then that makes me think, okay, well, you're resisting something because, I don't know, it's a trigger for you somehow.
Niall Mackay [00:32:07]:
I think it's what triggers me is the stupidity of it. I think that's what gets me worked up when I was like, it's just bullshit.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:32:15]:
Because it can't be explained.
Niall Mackay [00:32:17]:
Yeah, I guess so.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:32:19]:
Okay.
Niall Mackay [00:32:20]:
Yeah, I think because we're all just trying to find meaning in life. I've been there. I've been through that. We all want to find a bigger meaning because this thing that we have called consciousness is absolutely mental. And all through human history, I guess, through human life, once we started to be able to be conscious, we've tried to figure out what that meant.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:32:40]:
Yes, we have. That's true.
Niall Mackay [00:32:42]:
Yeah.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:32:43]:
Because we're the only real conscious beings, right. Or are we?
Niall Mackay [00:32:48]:
Well, exactly.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:32:49]:
Okay, so what I'm taking away from this conversation so far is that you are highly open to spirituality as long as it can be proven so.
Niall Mackay [00:32:57]:
I love this. One of my biggest pet peeves is when you see a sports star win the Super bowl, for example, and he's like, I want to thank God God did this. And you're like, well, what about the other guy who also believes in God? So his God wanted him to lose, but your God wanted you to win? This makes no sense.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:33:15]:
I also think the same thing when I hear that, I think, well, I don't think there's favorites that happen with fate or God or whatever higher power, but I do believe that we're all on our own journey of personal growth. So then whatever situations we're living through, whether it is a win or a loss, is there to teach us something. So it actually could serve to lose. It could serve to win. It just depends where you're at, what you need in that moment. That's what I believe.
Niall Mackay [00:33:39]:
I think that's, again, you're just trying to find meaning in something that doesn't have meaning. You lost a game or you lost something. You can interpret it that way, and that's fine. You can interpret it, and that's great. I'm going to learn from this experience, but I don't think that experience was put on you for you to learn something.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:33:57]:
No, I don't know that it was put on me either. I wouldn't say that. I would just say that experiences happen, right? And you can be of the mindset that's like, I'm going to learn from this or I'm going to be a victim and say, why did this happen to me?
Niall Mackay [00:34:11]:
Oh, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. But that's not spiritual. That's just your own faultitude.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:34:19]:
I guess it would be spiritual to me still. I would say that anything that is separate from the biology of my body and the basic function of my brain would connect me to spirituality. And I think the problem is that the word itself or the concept has gotten a bad rap because there's so much that's now called spiritual that everybody's like, oh, my goodness, it's woo woo. It doesn't make sense. It's an excuse for people to hope for something that doesn't exist. And really, to me that's not what it is. So I guess it needs a different word.
Niall Mackay [00:34:55]:
It's too many influences from Bali.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:34:58]:
I think you need a month long yoga retreat in Bali and you're going to come back a different guy.
Niall Mackay [00:35:03]:
One of the podcasts I work for right now, he should be back now. Actually, he's just done a ten day silent retreat.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:35:11]:
Oh, boy.
Niall Mackay [00:35:12]:
And he said, that's amazing. I can't go ten minutes.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:35:17]:
I know we're talkers. Like, there's no way that that would.
Niall Mackay [00:35:20]:
Happen, but I've known other people to do silent retreats. Apparently they're unbelievable. So maybe I would do something like that and then get inside myself and.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:35:30]:
Figure, oh, man, I would love to have a conversation with you after something like that and just see what kind of tune you're singing. I sure would.
Niall Mackay [00:35:39]:
But you didn't actually pick up on what I said earlier. I thought you were going to jump on that. I said about the law of attraction. I was wanting to make a podcast about a narrative podcast, and I've been thinking about it and then out of nowhere I got given the opportunity to make a podcast.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:35:55]:
But you don't believe that.
Niall Mackay [00:35:57]:
I believe that there is something. That's the weird thing, right? So I've done law of attraction. Like, I've used law of attraction to achieve goals before. I don't know what you know about the law of attraction. I think the big thing that always misses with that is they just make it this frufy thing that you just think something and then it happens and you need to take action towards making that happen. Like, if I just sit here and do nothing, I'm not going to get that podcast that I wanted, or I'm not going to get that promotion that I wanted. But I do think that if you put your mind to something, you have a goal, you have a target, and then you work towards it again. I don't think it's anything spiritual or fourth dimensional.
Niall Mackay [00:36:40]:
I think it's probably just coincidence. But you can make things happen, but you have to make them happen. So even though that podcast, one of the phrases I hate, and I've talked about this with people is like, oh, you're so lucky. What's not luck? Because you made it happen, right? I never think of myself as I was lucky that I got this podcast. I made it happen because I was putting myself out there. I've been producing good work. And then somebody came to me and said, hey, we like what you're doing. Can you make this narrative podcast? So while I'd been thinking about it and wanting to attract it, I still don't really think it was anything spiritual.
Niall Mackay [00:37:16]:
I think I made that happen, but I think it's good to have those intentions and have those, I guess, intentions of what you want to achieve. And if you take action towards achieving them, you will be more likely to achieve them. And so a different person would then be like, oh, look what I did. Because I thought of this in law of attraction and I was able to manifest on manifestation. Don't get me fucking started on manifestation. That's another buzzword right now. People love that. Oh, I manifested it.
Niall Mackay [00:37:42]:
Oh, manifestation. It's not manifestation. It's just think about it, focus on it, set a goal and do it, and it will happen more times than not.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:37:51]:
Yes. And I think that's where the gap falls, because people who believe in manifestation or law of attraction say, I'll just, like you said, will it into being and sit here and wait for it to happen. And that doesn't happen. It doesn't happen like that. Not in any circumstance does it ever happen like that. And such a key part of the whole process is the journey of it. I believe that. I believe that you're meant to go through some hardship, some struggle, some push, like all of that stuff promotes growth and teaches you things about yourself.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:38:24]:
So I think it's important for all of it to happen and not for things to just magically fall in your lap. So I struggle with the whole manifestation thing, law of attraction thing, because to me it seems like kind of greedy. I don't know, it's like I want all this for myself. But why do you need all that for yourself or why do you need this certain vision to happen? It sort of pigeonholes you like. If I said I envision myself, I want to live on a lake in the middle of the British Columbia mountains and just Zen out for the rest of my life. Well, I could feel the Zen that I think I'm going to get from a lake house in a thousand different ways. It doesn't have to be the lake house. So for me, manifestation actually puts limitations on what's possible rather than opens up what's possible.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:39:10]:
You know what I mean?
Niall Mackay [00:39:11]:
Yeah. I think the problem with the manifestation, like what you mentioned there about it being selfish, is if you have selfish intentions, then it's going to be selfish. So I remember the book for the secret and that kind of introduced the law of attraction to the world. It's kind of like, oh, I want this bag. So I imagine this bag and then I get this bag. This is probably why those super successful people are successful, because they actually know how to harness it. Now, they obviously have a lot of most successful people already come from money anyway. Nobody ever tells you that.
Niall Mackay [00:39:43]:
But the number one factor in somebody becoming rich is how rich their parents are like 100%. But I do think the wealthy people have harnessed that and they know how to use goal setting, law of attraction, manifestation, whatever you want to call it. So they know how to use it and then get richer. But the main thing is they came from a rich family. Not really that they manifest such a skeptic. It's true, though. The statistics absolutely show wealth begets wealth.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:40:13]:
Is that a statistic you're making up that most of the world's wealthy people were wealthy from their parents?
Niall Mackay [00:40:19]:
I'm not making that. It's the number one factor in becoming wealthy is having wealthy parents coming from wealth.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:40:26]:
But you could call that mindset as well, because when you come from wealth, you expect nothing less than, you don't know, hardship. Think of hardship. Right. But when you're coming from hardship, you're stuck in it. You're so stuck in it that it's really hard to see something different. So I think you're right. There is a privilege that comes with already having abundance from a young age.
Niall Mackay [00:40:48]:
Absolutely.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:40:49]:
You just assume that that's a given.
Niall Mackay [00:40:51]:
Yeah, I can't imagine how different. I mean, I come from a poor family. I can't imagine how the difference in the mindset of somebody who comes from not even abundant wealth, but just wealth to somebody who comes from a poor background. Yeah, I mean, the mindset is huge.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:41:06]:
Okay, before we leave each other why don't you tell us what you're working on right now? What's a way that people can connect with you?
Niall Mackay [00:41:13]:
So the best way to find me is just go to my website, sevenmillionbikes.com. Seven million. M-I-L-I-O-N. Bikes. And now most people think I'm saying bakes. B a, it's b I. Like a motorbike. Bikes, bikes.
Niall Mackay [00:41:27]:
Sevenmillionbikes.com. And you can find out about how, if anyone's listening, once their podcast edited, you can get in touch with me, and I'll talk to you about how.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:41:38]:
To do that and maybe even a little about some spirituality. If they just want to discuss the works of God, we can talk about it.
Niall Mackay [00:41:45]:
We can talk about it. The funny thing is, I edit a lot of spiritual podcasts, and you can imagine, imagine my face when I'm editing them.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:41:53]:
Is there anything left in the content when you're done?
Niall Mackay [00:41:57]:
I edit for the audio, not for the content.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:42:00]:
Oh, got you.
Niall Mackay [00:42:01]:
Well, I'm going to have to put.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:42:02]:
A million bleeps in this one.
Niall Mackay [00:42:03]:
Yeah. I should have asked before if I can swear or not. I don't swear that much, but only when I get excited.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:42:07]:
I swear all the time. And somehow when I come on the podcast, I can monitor myself. I don't know how that works.
Niall Mackay [00:42:13]:
I'm normally pretty polite, but you got me wound up. So when I get wound up.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:42:17]:
Yeah, there we go.
Niall Mackay [00:42:18]:
The swear words come out. Or for comedic effect. That's the other one.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:42:21]:
They're punchy. Swear words are punchy. I like them for that.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:42:25]:
Spirituality and science might look totally different at first. Spirituality is often motivated by a deep-seated human desire to understand the nature of our existence, figure out our purpose, try to understand our consciousness, while science digs into the physical world with experiments and data. I believe both contribute to our understanding of the universe in complementary ways, like two sides of the same coin. So here's my argument.
Science uses laws and equations to explain how things work, while spirituality takes a personal approach, exploring the deeper meaning of life and how everything is connected. Some spiritual traditions emphasize the interconnectedness of all life and the idea that everything is connected at a fundamental level in science, especially quantum physics, there's this idea that everything is connected on a microscopic scale, which challenges our usual ideas of separation. While science helps us understand the consequences of our actions, spirituality often provides a moral and ethical framework guiding those actions. And I'm not talking about religion.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:43:40]:
I'm talking about an internal compass. Science is figuring out the brain's role in consciousness, while spirituality explores consciousness from a personal, introspective angle, adding more layers to our understanding. Both science and spirituality admit that there's a bunch of stuff we don't know. Scientific discoveries keep leading to more questions, and spirituality encourages us to be okay with not having all the answers. Ultimately, if you choose to follow a spiritual path, you do it because it adds meaning to your life. It gives you purpose. It allows you to feel connected to something bigger than you, all of which improves your quality of life. There really is no downside.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:44:27]:
Not a single soul on this planet knows what exists beyond this reality, and I believe it's for a reason. Our human existence is just one chapter in our soul's journey. It's up to you to decide what kind of human experience you want to have. The good news is, there's no wrong answer.
Join us next week when we welcome Angela Chapman, an energy practitioner and coach who helps people experiencing self abandonment, chronic illness and catastrophic relationship conflicts shift from who they think they're supposed to be to who they really are. She is the perfect guest to follow Neil because she seamlessly incorporates both science and spirituality in her practice and gets results. She makes a case for the importance of staying open to what is scientifically explained and to what you inherently know. See you next week!
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:45:25]:
Do you have your own story about being versus doing? We want to hear it. Or maybe you have a different perspective on the things we discuss in this podcast. We'd love to have you as a guest. To get started, visit thechangeevolutionist.com/podcastguest. What did you think of this episode? Join the private change evolutionist community chat to share your thoughts. Find the link in the show notes.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:45:54]:
You can now record or text a question through fanlist. Just head over to fanlist.com/human beingproject and set up an account. Your question, comment or feedback and our response to it may be featured in one of our new Q&A episodes coming soon.
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