RYAN BUSH [00:00:00]:
You. I've argued in this book that basically our mood is. Is regulated by the virtues that we see in ourselves. And so when we take action on a regular basis, when we make decisions and we go out and engage in certain habits, our brain is sort of watching us, and it's forming conclusions about us based on these. These traits that we exhibit, these positive, admirable traits. And the more reason we give ourselves to admire ourselves, the higher our mood is going to climb. And when, for one reason or another, we find ourselves in a place where we aren't seeing evidence of those virtues, we aren't seeing our strengths. We don't have a lot of good reason to admire ourselves, or at least we're not able to see those reasons.
RYAN BUSH [00:00:43]:
That's when we get dangerously close to depression.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:00:48]:
I am so excited for you to experience this episode. It has been incredibly impactful for me. You would think during this conversation, as.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:00:57]:
It was happening, that the light bulb would have turned on for me.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:00:59]:
And it did to some degree. But actually, most of the impact of this episode has come throughout the last couple of weeks while I've been editing.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:01:07]:
It's like hearing it again.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:01:09]:
Hearing it without being involved in the conversation has just lit my brain on fire. And it served as a catalyst for me to get off the sidelines and take some kind of action in my life. So I'm hoping that as you listen to this episode, you feel that same deep inner ignition that has happened for me. Specifically. If you've been even in a slightly dark place of depression or overwhelm, or if you feel pressure to be the person you're supposed to be, to lose the weight you're supposed to lose, to do something that feels unattainable or to change who you are in some way and you're feeling stuck like me. This episode is for you. If you feel worthless, if you feel unlovable, if you feel incompetent, you're so sure that you have to change something, but you really don't have anything to prove to anyone but yourself. Your actions need to convince you that you are a good person, that you can be counted on, that you keep promises to yourself, that you have admirable qualities.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:02:17]:
What I've learned from this episode has absolutely transformed my entire approach to 2024, and I know it's going to do that for you, too. Our guest today, Ryan Bush, is the author of a couple of books, but the one we're talking about today is titled become who you are. It's about crafting your character, not your image. Plus, a little later in the episode, Brian talks about being autistic and how neurotypes like those with autism or ADhd have been led to believe that their diagnosis is a disability or a disorder, when in fact, it's a rare and profound gift. This is a powerful episode, and we are so excited to share it with you. Welcome to the Human Being Project, a podcast hosted by my dad and I that's an exploration of finding meaning and purpose in who we are rather than what we do. I'm Janelle Thieson, a keen observer of human interactions and behaviors and an advocate for being. For being present, being authentic, and staying open.
RON THIESSEN [00:03:25]:
I'm Ron Thesson, a psychologist, educator, and facilitator, and I'm on a personal journey to find a balance between a lifelong habit of productivity and the presence or being state that nurtures my spirit and seems to have the greatest impact on the world around me. In each episode, Janelle and I explore ways to make space for more being and less doing, to focus on spiritual energy, intuition, and the relationship between heart and mind so we can positively impact the world through our conscious doing.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:04:05]:
Today, we're welcoming Brian Bush, and the reason he's joining us on the podcast is because he's written a book called become who you are, a new theory of self esteem, human greatness, and the opposite of depression. So we're intrigued to have you on the podcast today. Ryan, tell everyone a little bit about yourself.
RYAN BUSH [00:04:24]:
Yeah, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me, guys. Yeah. So I'm the founder of designing the mind. I wrote a book by the same name, designing the mind. The Principles of Psychitecture was published in 2021. It was kind of a bestseller, and it's brought in a lot of people to my community. And through that, I've been able to develop a number of products, physical products, online programs, a membership community, and of course, this new book, which I think is my best one yet.
RYAN BUSH [00:04:53]:
So I'm really excited to be sharing it with everyone.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:04:55]:
That's awesome. So you started this journey how? Like, I read in your book here that you were homeschooled. Am I right?
RYAN BUSH [00:05:04]:
That's right, yeah.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:05:05]:
And I'm going to say it's a little similar to my upbringing because I was raised in a very private school in the sense that there were like, I'm going to say 20 kids from grade, kindergarten to twelve. So it was almost like homeschooling. But what was that experience like? Your academic ventures, how it all began for you, the growing up process with homeschooling and then moving on into your career and so on. Can you tell us a little bit of background there?
RYAN BUSH [00:05:33]:
Sure. Yeah. I was homeschooled, really only for a few years, but I went to a Montessori school before that. Then I was homeschooled, and then I picked the worst possible year, arguably, to jump into the real school system, 7th grade. And so that was a shock for a couple of reasons, but mainly socially, I think I was academically very overprepared, if anything, for it. But, yeah, I kind of felt like I landed on an alien planet when I got there. And that set off part of my journey was sort of deciding that I wasn't really proud of the person I was once I got to real school. I felt like I was kind of afraid of the world.
RYAN BUSH [00:06:17]:
I was barely speaking to my peers at the time. I had a lot of growing to do, and that led me to basically take on a journey of discomfort, voluntary discomfort, where I joined the football team despite being much more of a chess team type of kid, and played for that whole year, and then the next four years after that, really specifically because, and I don't know how I understood this as a 13 year old, but I wanted to do what wasn't comfortable and get myself out of that comfort zone as far as I could and really expand my potential.
RON THIESSEN [00:06:53]:
Where did that come from? Because when I read your book, that was something that stood out to me as a 13 year old kid. You've got all these plans and algorithms that you're using. You're planning your life. Where did that come from? You were thinking like an adult at 13.
RYAN BUSH [00:07:09]:
Yeah, I'm naturally very introspective. I've been obsessed with my own mind for a long time, and emotions and happiness. And I think part of it's genetic, part of it. I think my parents did a pretty good job on that front. They're both very thoughtful people. And so, yeah, I had been thinking a lot about the good life and what goes into it for, I guess, my whole life. It is kind of shocking to me that I made a call like that at such an early age. But, yeah, I mean, it really does speak to how I'm wired.
RYAN BUSH [00:07:45]:
I'm always kind of oblivious to the world around me and my social world and my physical surroundings, but I'm always thinking about my own thoughts and beliefs and emotions and mental habits. And so that's created this whole world of psychitecture down the line that's sort of the focus of my first book and kind of the pervading focus of all my work. But it really sort of developed from there. I started getting into philosophy and psychology and realizing a lot of the ideas that I thought were original. Someone had beat me to by a couple of thousand years. And yeah, I started reading everything from stoicism to budhism to neuroscience and evolutionary psychology, and that sort of developed on its own. And then I sort of decided in college I wanted something that brought in my creative side a little more than just the academic, intellectual side. So I went into product design, and it wasn't until a few years after I graduated and started working and doing the product design thing that I realized there was a way for me to sort of merge my design passions with my psychological, philosophical passions.
RYAN BUSH [00:09:02]:
And that's what sort of led to designing the mind.
RON THIESSEN [00:09:05]:
Interesting.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:09:06]:
Can you break down this term, psychitecture? Can you break that down for me as simply as possible? Because I find it hard to understand the concept and I think people would benefit from it. So what is that? What is psychitecture?
RYAN BUSH [00:09:21]:
Sure, it's really just the process of designing and modifying your own mind and sort of the mental patterns that make up who you are. In some ways, you could think of it like the mental equivalent of bodybuilding or something. It's just a focus on building, developing, exerting your own design and your own values on the way that your mind is structured. And a lot of that comes down to what I call psychological algorithms. But you could think just micro habits in your mind. So, for example, if you have a habit of thinking a really negative thought, when an apparent setback happens to you, you could go in and say, well, that's causing a lot of negative moods. And if I can replace that habit with finding a positive interpretation, there's a lot of evidence that that'll result in much healthier moods and actually eliminate a lot of mood disorders that are perpetuated by these interpretations. And so looking at the way that our thoughts and our emotions and behaviors sort of chain together and how we can jump in and find the leverage points to change it for our own good.
RYAN BUSH [00:10:26]:
Essentially, the first book, it was very focused on this process and the principles behind creating the mental changes. But I think it could lead some to ask, well, why? What's the point? Where am I going? What do I want to design my mind for? And I think in some ways this book addresses that. It sort of gets to the heart of what the good life is and what it means to have strong character and a healthy mind. And so it provides a map for navigating your life and your decisions and also your psychitextural endeavors.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:11:00]:
Well, like I said to you earlier, I just read chapter twelve of your book before we jumped on here to record this podcast. And I'm really glad that I did because the concepts of your book are awesome, but for me, they're just a little bit, I don't know. Once upon a time, my mom said that she thought I had a learning disability, and maybe she's right. I don't know. Some of this stuff is just like, whoa, that's a lot. But what I love about your book is that you did this chapter twelve summary for people like me because you made it into more of a story. You used real life applications for what you were actually talking about throughout the whole book because you talk about things like virtues, and even the word alone is a stumper for me. I don't totally get the word virtue or the way that it was used throughout the book as much, but in chapter twelve, you brought it all together, and I'm so grateful for that.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:11:55]:
So one of the things that just literally punched me in the face when I read this was when you said that in 2021, or in the middle of the pandemic, you went through depression, and you said all within one year, basically, you felt really good. You felt not depressed. I think you called it not depressed. I don't know if you called it really good, but you called it definitely not depressed. And then you felt a period of real depression, and then you felt not depressed again. And you said, this is directly from the book. You said, I think I needed to live it to learn how it all came together, to understand depression. Because prior to that, you maybe didn't understand.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:12:35]:
And I certainly would say the same. I do not understand depression. But what I love about what you said is this is a core belief of mine that you actually need to experience hardship or struggle as lessons in life that equip you for future lessons and future experiences. And as you would argue, I think in this book would also create really lasting happiness the more struggle you endure. Can you speak a little to that for us?
RYAN BUSH [00:13:06]:
Sure. Absolutely. So first, I'll just say everyone learns in their own different ways. And so that's one of the reasons I'm developing an animation, to kind of get across these ideas, because I think they're very visual and books don't lend themselves that well to that. So, yeah, I'm excited to share that soon. But, yeah, as far as the role that hardship and difficulty play, I think, yeah, I've been studying depression and all these different psychological variables behind it for decades now, and it didn't all come together until after this experience. I had sort of played around with a few different theories, and none of it added up. And then once I felt it, once I was actually in it and knew what it was like, a lot of those little bits and pieces of research sort of clicked together for me.
RYAN BUSH [00:14:01]:
And so in my case, a big part of what was going on with me. I had had pretty high self esteem my whole life. I had had overall, very positive, healthy temperament, good mood most days, and of course, I would have bad days, but I'd go to bed and wake up, and the bad mood would be gone. And that's where you want to be, but that's not where it is. When you're in depression, that kind of hangs over you. And I think what led me into that was one getting to a place in my work where I was no longer seeing what I was good at. I had started out as this creative designer, and the product cycle had sort of pushed me into an engineering, drafting, very technical role that I was pretty bad at, honestly. At the same time, I had a coworker who had taken a really strong dislike to me from, like, day one.
RYAN BUSH [00:14:55]:
No apparent reason, really, but was just kind of sabotaging me at every turn. And between this and the fact that at one point, she actually diagnosed me with autism with no solicitation, I mean, it really bizarre. But this obviously gave me a lot to grapple with over that year. And then there was, of course, a pandemic that hit just after. And pandemics don't tend to make things better for an identity crisis you may be going through. So all this kind of led me into that position where I really wasn't convinced of what I had always been convinced, which is that I'm a worthy, lovable, competent person. And this is exactly what we see in depressed patients, particularly those who are severely depressed. They think they are worthless.
RYAN BUSH [00:15:49]:
They think they're unlovable and incompetent. Luckily, I was more mildly moderately depressed in this period, and I have a few things, I think, to thank for that. But really, my self esteem sort of started dropping and sort of when it hit a low, that's when I felt a shift in my mood and my overall feeling, my interests and my passions. I mean, it was kind of like the life got sucked out of me for that year, and it took some sort of structural changes in my life and my thinking to bring me back. But I think it's a good opportunity to talk about this virtue thing because it does get a lot of people stumped. I weighed which word was sort of the best to use because it does sound sort of like this moral purity preachy thing today. And historically, it hasn't always been that way. It was arete in ancient Greece, which is often translated to excellence.
RYAN BUSH [00:16:45]:
Like, it's not just about being morally good, it's about being good at things, whether it's courage or compassion or creativity. You could call it your strengths, you could call it your personal skills, whatever it is, your character traits, but these are the things that you are good at. And that we admire as a species and other people. We can look at all these different cultures, and there are certain strengths, certain virtues that are pretty much admired in every culture in the world. And so there's something very important, very deeply ingrained about these traits. And I've argued in this book that basically our mood is regulated by the virtues that we see in ourselves. And so when we take action on a regular basis, when we make decisions and we go out and engage in certain habits, our brain is sort of watching us, and it's forming conclusions about us based on these traits that we exhibit, these positive, admirable traits. And the more reason we give ourselves to admire ourselves, the higher our mood is going to climb.
RYAN BUSH [00:17:48]:
And when, for one reason or another, we find ourselves in a place where we aren't seeing evidence of those virtues, we aren't seeing our strengths. We don't have a lot of good reason to admire ourselves, or at least we're not able to see those reasons. That's when we get dangerously close to depression. And so I've argued about some of the origins of all this, but what it ultimately means is that the right way to think about the good life and what is a good thing to happen to you isn't fundamentally about your circumstances. It's not about gain or success. It's about that cultivation of character and virtue. And if we start asking, how can I measure my life based on what is allowing me to exercise those strengths versus what is just a good thing to have on paper, we'll be much better at this happiness game because you can have all the best things in the world happen to you and still be unhappy. We look at these people and say, well, what's going on here? Well, it wasn't really about having these good things happen to you in the first place.
RYAN BUSH [00:18:52]:
It's about how well those things in your life enable you to bring out your greatest strengths and see evidence of those strengths on a daily basis.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:19:00]:
I think it's absolutely powerful, even just applying it to my own life, because I'm not going to lie. It's December when we're recording this. I have been in a slump now for a solid four weeks, I'm going to say. And just reading this this morning, I was like, you have hit the nail on the head here, because it's about my internal proof. It's what I actually believe about my own actions. I'm the one witnessing them. I know exactly what's going on, or my own inaction, for that matter. I'm the one who's witnessing what's going on.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:19:31]:
And you're right, I don't see myself as admirable. You use that word, admirable traits or that concept of admirable traits. And there are some things where, sure, I'm not saying I feel terribly about myself all the time, but there are decisions that I thought I made but that I didn't act on. And so then there is this trust level in yourself where you're like, well, I make promises and I don't keep them. So that's who I am. And that does totally affect mood and happiness. I feel like this was a gut punch for me. This chapter twelve, I love it.
RYAN BUSH [00:20:05]:
Yeah, well, I'm sorry to hear that you've been in a bit of a slump, but I'm glad that it could be a gut punch in that way and kind of put things into a new frame. I do think that there is this kind of, we think no one's watching when we make the decisions that sort of define us. I always say, if you find a wallet with tons of money in it and you decide to keep it and not return it to the owner, no one's going to find out. You're not going to get in trouble. The consequences are in your own mind. And this is what religions, in many cases have been centered around, is this idea that there are deeper consequences for the things you do even when no one's watching. But the truth is just psychologically, the most important person is always watching. That's you.
RYAN BUSH [00:20:49]:
And so that's how you need to navigate your life, I think just using that as a compass for where you should go next in your life. How can I make myself admire myself more? How can I keep those promises? How can I do these things that I've always been good at and prided myself on? But they've lost expression, they've been suppressed in my life right now. This is really huge. And I think our sort of collective map for navigating our well being just doesn't account for this well enough.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:21:19]:
Totally. I actually wanted to read an excerpt from the book from page 218. You said, one of my core goals in this book is to break the illusion that your challenges are mere obstacles in the way of your goals. To get you to stop approaching life like a tourist climbing incredible mountains, frustrated by the fact that it isn't easy. You've been talking in pages previous to this that the challenges and the discomfort are there for a reason. They actually serve such a valuable purpose. And that's one of the things I've been struggling with in the last few weeks, is I have an addiction to mediocrity. I am comfortable.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:21:58]:
I am not uncomfortable enough to make change. You said something about that. You talked about comfort and mediocrity is actually worse than having one acute negative experience, because you stay in that comfort and mediocrity, where an acute negative experience can sometimes be a catalyst for something amazing to happen in your life, even though it sucks at the moment that mediocrity, I am firmly planted there and that is a very difficult spot to be. And you do have to force yourself into areas of discomfort, like you did when you said, I'm a chess player, probably, but I'm going to go be a football player.
RON THIESSEN [00:22:37]:
Yeah, right in line with that. When you talked about when you have your summers with nothing to do, and you're looking at the beginning of the summer and saying, oh, it's going to be so nice to have nothing to do, and then you're bored silly. And when you filled your summers with objectives and things that you wanted to accomplish, there's so much fulfillment in doing that. And this is something that I'm facing right now. I am in the process of cutting back and doing less and wondering how I'm going to be with doing less. Because my whole life I've been doing. And one of the reasons for this podcast even because we're really exploring this whole concept of being instead of doing and actually being. When you're confident and you're solid in your being, you actually probably do more just by being rather than by working so hard to do certain things because you think that's what you should do.
RYAN BUSH [00:23:35]:
I was curious how that would play out with your focus on being versus doing. And that argument that I make, that when you're not doing anything, you don't have evidence of these strengths, so you end up being miserable. I think the best way to sort of reconcile it is that a lot of people in our culture focus on being busy with things that really don't enhance their well being, don't really bring out their personal strengths. We obsess over productivity and profits and things that really don't have any basis in our fundamental wiring of our brain. Right. And so a lot of us who are doing, doing, actually aren't doing as much of what really matters than someone who's just living on a farm in Switzerland, meditating every day. Right? I mean, really, it's about what gives you the opportunity to bring out your strengths. And that can be through, yes, your work, but it can also be through your interpersonal relationships, your hobies, your communities.
RYAN BUSH [00:24:36]:
And so there are a lot of ways to do in a way that is much healthier for our minds. I think. Getting back to what you were saying, janelle, I think this three dimensional framework is really useful for evaluating these things, because if you just take it as a binary, should you do things that are uncomfortable, that cause you pain and suffering, or should you avoid things that are uncomfortable and cause you pain and suffering? Neither of those are really the right answer because there's a lot of truly unnecessary suffering that people put themselves through that doesn't serve any purpose. But there are also people, like you say, who are trapped in comfortable mediocrity. I mean, I imagine what would have happened if I had stayed at my company and there hadn't been some things that sort of pushed me out and gave me that acute nudge to leave. If I had just stayed there for decades in that comfortable mediocrity, how would things have turned out? Right. And so I think the best way to make these decisions is to use this framework. And so if you imagine that there's a chessboard sitting in front of you and you've got the x axis, which is the left and right, pleasure and pain, essentially.
RYAN BUSH [00:25:49]:
Further, you go to the right on this chessboard, the more pleasure you've got in your life. And further on the left is discomfort and pain and suffering. Then the y axis, you've got loss and gain, right? So that's further away from you or closer to you on the chessboard. Move further away, and you've got more gain, more success in your life. More things are going the way you want them to in your circumstances, and then loss is down. Right. And so the idea is that this is the map that most people use to navigate their happiness. It's what we use by default, and it's what culture sort of tells us.
RYAN BUSH [00:26:22]:
More pleasure and more gain is better. The problem with this is that you look at lottery winners and you look at paraplegics and these people who have had seemingly very good or very bad things happen. And it doesn't really do anything to their happiness. They predict that it will and then their predictions are wrong. And so what is wrong with this map? Well, I've argued that there's a third dimension that we can pull mountains and valleys out of this chessboard and it sort of becomes a 3d topographical chessboard. And ultimately, what determines what we should be doing in our lives is this third dimension. It is moving higher up on these mountains or out of the valleys. And so it's going up in this z dimension.
RYAN BUSH [00:27:05]:
It's not going right or left or back and forth. And that's why there will be times in our lives when going to the left or down, going through something that is uncomfortable, that is painful will actually allow us to go higher in this z axis. Because just the way that things play out, some really difficult circumstances give us more opportunities to demonstrate what's great about us, give us more reason to admire ourselves. There are people who have been in concentration camps and terrible situations who really focused on handling the hand that they've been dealt in a very virtuous way with courage and with integrity and compassion. And these people end up saying, yeah, it's really about something else. It's not about having good things happen to you. It's about the way that you deal with them. And similarly, there will be other times when it really is going toward that pleasurable, comfortable thing.
RYAN BUSH [00:28:06]:
It really is that job with the pay increase that will also give you the ability to bring out more of your strengths. And so either rule that you should do what's uncomfortable or shouldn't is too simple. You have to think about the full map and ask what's going to give me the opportunity to show myself what I admire in myself, to show myself what's so great about me. And that'll change throughout your life. And it's a balancing act. But that's, I think, how we should be navigating.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:28:33]:
You said that you may achieve greater net virtue by striving for balance. You said that on one of these pages here, and I highlighted it because the balance is also a crucial aspect. But I guess the way you find that balance is like you just said, you ask yourself the key questions, am I working towards something that's going to create a better feeling about myself? Am I going to see myself as admirable? Or am I going to see myself as a winner or somebody who gets stuff done or whatever you perceive the ideal superhero in your story to look like or to do or to carry out. Can you see yourself that way? Right?
RYAN BUSH [00:29:13]:
Yeah, I think that's right. I'll say, for example, right now I'm pretty much living and breathing this book launch. And it's certainly giving me lots of opportunities to use my professional strengths and all these different skill sets that I've acquired over the last few years. So it's fulfilling overall. But I do think after this book's launch and I'm able to get a little more balance, I'm able to have more of a social life around me and spend less time working. I think I'll actually move higher in that z axis. I'll be able to see more virtue through a healthier balance. I have to keep that in mind and say, this is temporary.
RYAN BUSH [00:29:53]:
This is not how I want things to go after the next couple of months. It is a tricky balancing act at times. And it doesn't help that we have to very often work to meet our basic needs and just put the food on the table. Essentially, that gives us some difficult decisions. Is it worth taking on this repetitive, monotonous job that really doesn't give me any opportunity for virtue or creativity in order to just pay the bills? Or do I take a risk and go for this new venture that maybe will help me do that? May not. Yeah, I mean, there are tough decisions in all this. I think the most important thing is that we at least have a compass, a way of evaluating those decisions and knowing what we're doing in terms of our own happiness.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:30:47]:
I was wondering if I could ask you about a paragraph that I read here that I don't totally understand. I'm going to read it to you if I can, and then maybe you can simplify it for me. You said, we must remember that our happiness mechanism was not built for our own sake. It was not meant to be gamed for maximum well being. It was meant to maximize social status and genetic outcomes. For this reason, we're not wired to be conscious of it directly. In fact, we probably evolved not to understand this mechanism very well. What do you mean by that?
RYAN BUSH [00:31:22]:
Yeah, so I sort of talked about this two dimensional map and the three dimensional map. And I think that we were wired only to have the two dimensional map. In other words, we were wired to pay attention to things that are good for our genes, things that enhance our mating and our social prospects and accumulation of resources. We're sort of built to constantly want more and to go after things. They're good from a biological standpoint, but they don't always make us happy. We aren't really designed to be happy from an evolutionary standpoint, at least not optimally happy. And so a lot of the philosophy behind designing the mind is about sort of hacking the systems in our brain to achieve a degree of happiness and peace that we aren't really built for. And I think that comes into this virtue system.
RYAN BUSH [00:32:14]:
Now, some of it does get a little technical as to why this system is built in our brain in the first place. I think it is fundamentally by origin. It's a social mechanism to try to get us to bring out behaviors that are good for our social status. So, for example, if you perceive that you're not a highly admirable person, if you don't think you are likely to be approved of or respected, it's best that you sort of lay low. From a genetic standpoint, it's best that you withdraw socially. Don't call too much attention to yourself. And these are exactly the traits that we see in depression. We see people withdrawing socially, demonstrating socially risk averse behaviors, basically interpreting other people's reactions toward them in a negative way so as not to damage their social status.
RYAN BUSH [00:33:05]:
And on the other end, when people are in a great mood and feel great about themselves, they want to show off their virtues, they want to put themselves out there. And so I think this whole mood regulation system in our brain is basically a function of a social status optimizer and simulator in our heads. Ultimately, it is in some ways an act of rebellion to put our own approval, to put our own happiness above this sort of social status game that's playing out all around us, and particularly was playing out in the world of our ancestors, who were constantly immersed in a tribe of 100, 200 people. So essentially, we do have to make this decision to go in to these systems in our brain and hack them in a way to optimize them for our own happiness, which wasn't the original goal, but it is very much possible.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:33:59]:
So is that what the anxiety algorithm is, or is it a version of that where you walk people through this hacking the brain process? Is that something that you do or a framework that you've created?
RYAN BUSH [00:34:13]:
Yeah. So this is all kind of subsets of psychitecture. And so the anxiety algorithm was kind of the first thing I made after putting out the book, because I provided this high level overview of this thing called psychitecture. But I hadn't really done a deep dive into one specific mechanism and how we rewire it in our brains. So I spent basically a year reading everything I could find on anxiety, from popular books to clinical handbooks to research papers, and integrating that all into a really solid understanding of how this system in our brain works that creates anxiety. It's distinct from, but interrelated with what we're talking about with depression and the self appraisal system. So the anxiety algorithm, I have a course centered around it, but the idea is going in and actually creating these deep changes to the fear and the panic and the worry that's sort of ingrained in our brains, as opposed to just calming, soothing ourselves, escaping the anxiety, actually changing it on a deeper level.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:35:23]:
I love that because it is necessary when witnessing anxiety in others. And on the occasions that I felt it myself, I've often thought that I can soothe, I can meditate, I can do the things that help in the moment, but the underlying fear or the belief system or whatever is still the same. And so those situations still crop up. Right. So I love that you're digging deeper. I love that.
RYAN BUSH [00:35:49]:
Yeah. And really, people don't realize this, but very often when we soothe our anxiety, we actually make it worse, or we reinforce it because we essentially are escaping it. It's a form of avoidance. And avoidance is exactly what fuels anxiety. And so any kind of avoidance, whether it's the obvious, running away from something or mental avoidance, anything we do in our heads to escape this all tells our brain that basically that thing we're afraid of is a legitimate danger. We should keep being afraid of it because we ran away from it. And so the only way to really eliminate anxiety or panic or worry, whatever it is, is to go toward that thing instead of away from it. And there are different ways to approach this, depending on if it's a phobia or it's panic attacks or it's worries, but essentially finding that way to actually go toward the thing you're afraid of, stop avoiding and actually go so far as to embrace that thing.
RYAN BUSH [00:36:46]:
That's really how you overcome anxiety. And I've seen it both in myself, both looking back at, again, that experience, joining the football team and signing up for presentations, basically exposure therapy. Without knowing the name for it, I did it again with climbing. I had this really intense fear of heights, and I was a member of a climbing gym, but I only did the bouldering part because I was scared to climb up that high. And I basically took everything I learned from developing this program and used myself as kind of a guinea pig. And there was definitely a learning curve to it, because at first you think exposure therapy means just do it, and I tried to just do it, and it didn't work. The fear didn't go away, and I learned a lot of the important nuances of it. I learned that really, I wasn't afraid of the height so much because I can fly in planes and go on roller coasters just fine.
RYAN BUSH [00:37:43]:
I was afraid of the possibility that I would decide to let go and fall or I would slip. And so I had to kind of climb up to a height on the wall that I was moderately afraid of and start deliberately slipping. I would intentionally try to grab the next hold and fall. And I did this enough to the point where I turned it into kind of this playful thing. I was showing my brain that it's not this serious danger. This is essentially a joke.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:38:12]:
Wow.
RYAN BUSH [00:38:12]:
And I was able to scale that up to climb to the top without any anxiety over the course of a couple of weeks of doing this. Wow.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:38:21]:
That's incredible.
RON THIESSEN [00:38:24]:
I'd like to switch gears a little bit here, because when I listen to you talk, your mind thinks in very logical patterns. And I know not everybody's like that, but you wrote in your book about that you were diagnosed with autism and what that meant to you and what things you've realized about autism. And I'd like you to talk a little bit about that, if you wouldn't mind, even to the point of the evolutionary evidences of autism being something that is beneficial and in its own way, special. If you could just address that a little bit, I'd really appreciate that.
RYAN BUSH [00:39:03]:
Yeah, absolutely. So I mentioned that a coworker had sort of diagnosed me with autism without any solicitation of that. But I basically spent the next few weeks after that kind of researching and nodding and realizing the worst part was that she was right about that. I don't think the approach was right, but, yeah, I did end up sort of self diagnosing myself and learning more about some of the misconceptions and the stereotypes that I had held that caused me to overlook this in the past. I had always assumed I just had social anxiety, but that didn't really explain the way that my brain works. It is generally pretty different. It's very systematic, and that's something you see in a lot of people who are autistic. But I also wondered about it because there were a few things that didn't add up with my understanding and the cultural understanding of autism.
RYAN BUSH [00:40:03]:
I mean, for one, why is it so prevalent if it's just this crippling disorder that has negative effects. Right. From an evolutionary standpoint, it shouldn't have been preserved in the gene pool. And I think the same goes for other neurotypes, like ADHD, for example. Why is this stuck around if it's such a bad thing? Also the fact that we see so many people who are autistic, and they do have these social struggles, but they also have minds that work in really good, admirable ways, right? We see a lot of analytical and creative talent among these different types of brains. And so why does this exist? Why is this here? And it kind of ties into my broader argument on the evolution of human virtues. But essentially, we can look at certain species of animals and see that there are rare patterns, rare colorations in a few of them, and things like guppies and certain lizards. We see this also in psychopaths, in the human population, right? But essentially, there are certain combinations of traits that are preserved in only a small percentage of the population because they're only really adaptive when they're rare.
RYAN BUSH [00:41:18]:
It's a trade off in the sense that it comes at a cost. There are difficulties that come along with having a brain or for birds, certain feather patterns or whatever it is. You look at a peacock, right? Why would they have these huge targets on their backs, basically attracting predators? Well, it's because these things are sort of attractive to mates and to social allies, even though they come at a cost. And so this is sort of frequency dependent. Selection is the idea that certain traits or combinations of traits are preserved at something like 5% of the population because that keeps them rare, and that makes them admirable and approvable and attractive specifically because they're rare. And so I've argued that people who are autistic who have ADHD, they exist and continue to exist because even though there are certain costs either to social functioning or executive functioning, they come with other strengths, other virtues. I have a lot of close friends who have ADHD, and they're often the most funny, creative, interesting people you'll ever meet, even though they struggle with certain things that the rest of us kind of comes naturally to us. In many cases, it pays off, and it ends up having these benefits even though there's a cost to it.
RYAN BUSH [00:42:40]:
And so that's what I've sort of argued. It's not a proven theory yet, but I think there needs to be more research on it because I do think this frequency dependent selection mechanism that we see in other animals could very easily apply to neurotypes. And I would love to see in a few years the diagnostic and statistical manual update, to stop framing these things as purely disorders when they are different, but they're neurotypes. They have pros and cons to them.
RON THIESSEN [00:43:09]:
That's very interesting. In my practice I've seen people who are autistic or on the autism spectrum, and I see the genius in them, the capability of doing things that other people can't do. And it's interesting that you really put that into a framework and a context kind of scientifically for me in your book, and it answers some questions for me about those kind of people and the fact that they are rare. I'm wondering, what do you think about the increase in the diagnosis of ADD ADHD in kids now? And it seems to be tied into the immediate gratification of all the social media and stuff that's around them all the time. Everything moves so fast. Do you think that are we over generalizing when we're saying, well, this kid now has ADD or ADHD?
RYAN BUSH [00:44:05]:
I don't think we're necessarily over generalizing. There probably are misdiagnosis diagnoses. But yeah, I think overall we can explain this through a few things. I mean, one, just diagnosis of things in general is getting more common. There's more awareness, more people are willing to go to a therapist and talk about these things. I also think that you really only do that when there is some problem. And so I think that it could be that the modern world is getting more and more problematic for people of these different mindsets. In the ancient world, when our ancestors lived, for one, I think someone like me wouldn't have struggled socially as much because you didn't have to do a whole lot of meeting new people and small talk and things like that because you knew 150 people and you've known them since you were born, basically.
RYAN BUSH [00:44:57]:
And people with ADHD, you didn't have to sit at a desk and focus on one single task for a long period of time. You didn't have a house you had to keep clean, you didn't have a phone you had to keep track of. And so a lot of these things, as the modern world gets less and less like that world of our ancestors, for better or worse, it ends up amplifying a lot of these problems. And so more people are likely to go and seek a diagnosis. If you're more socially isolated, you're not getting as much social practice, you're going to be more likely to have problems with socializing. And the Internet just doesn't provide a good alternative to face to face interaction, you're going to struggle more and more with these things. So between those, I think that explains it. I don't think these traits are actually getting more common genetically.
RYAN BUSH [00:45:50]:
So I think it just comes down to why they're getting diagnosed more.
RON THIESSEN [00:45:55]:
And from what I hear from educators, it seems like the kids that are pandemic kids, so they basically started their education online because of the pandemic. There are some really significant social problems in these kids coming back into the school environment and now having to make the adjustment to being with other kids, et cetera. And so making the point that you were talking about that the online world is just not a good representation of what the things that we need to learn to interact with each other. And I think the problem is just growing in that generation of kids.
RYAN BUSH [00:46:33]:
Yeah, I think between that, between the isolation of the pandemic and, again, the Internet and just how social media and things sort of distort our attention spans, I think it's going to shine a lot more light on some of these difficulties that otherwise wouldn't have become a problem. I mean, again, the idea is that autism and ADHD wouldn't have been crippling disorders at one point, right? Really, they wouldn't have been diagnosed because it would be clear there are trade offs to it, but they wouldn't sort of bring out those negative sides so strongly. And so now between modern technology and just the way society has shifted, I think it is going to bring out a lot more of these issues. So we will see more of these things getting diagnosed now. It does also touch on depression getting more prevalent, particularly among young people, which is really alarming. And I don't think this is a neurotype by any means. This is not just the way that different brains are wired. We're all wired to be capable of getting depressed under certain conditions.
RYAN BUSH [00:47:48]:
And so I think the modern world does have to do with this, too. But I think it's in large part because kind of what we're saying, that social media just doesn't function as a good alternative to real social community, and modern work doesn't serve as a good alternative to the kind of work that our ancestors would have been doing, basically sitting in front of computers all the time. And so if this is the case, it is going to distort our ability to bring out and see our own virtues. I think there are also sort of societal beliefs that we inherit that limit our ability to see our own strengths. We may be a lovable person that has tons of friendship and love in our lives, but we have been conditioned to only pay attention to achievement and as a result, yes, we may become depressed because we just don't believe we add up on that front, when really that's only one type of virtue that you can have.
RON THIESSEN [00:48:49]:
Yeah, very good point.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:48:50]:
I feel like we could talk forever and ever because there's just so much good stuff here, honestly. But we do need to wrap it up. So I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell people how do they get a hold of this book and are there other ways that they can work with you or resources that you provide specifically for depression or for anxiety that you want to talk about?
RYAN BUSH [00:49:10]:
Yes. So the book is now available for preorder. Very excited about that. We're trying to go big with this launch and you can literally get the Kindle version for $2. It's kind of insane.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:49:21]:
Oh, wow.
RYAN BUSH [00:49:21]:
And there's also a hardcover version, but you can get all that by going to designingthemind.org becoming. You will also see links there to join the email list and get a couple of free books. The Psychotex toolkit and the book of Self Mastery will be sent right to your email list and then you can kind of learn more about the DTM ecosystem. We've got a program kind of built around these ideas called the flourishing function. We've got a deck of introspection cards for getting to know yourself and asking the right questions. You kind of take a card, go on a walk, and it has a little pocket sized journal that you can write in. So yeah, we got a lot of cool resources and you can get to them all at that one link.
RON THIESSEN [00:50:04]:
Awesome.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:50:05]:
We'll have that link in the show notes for sure.
RON THIESSEN [00:50:07]:
Do you work one on one with people or do you work with them through the materials that you provide on your website?
RYAN BUSH [00:50:13]:
I don't do any one on one work, but I do have a private community called Mindform that is, it's got all the programs, it's got all these resources on it. It's a paid membership. It's application only. But the idea is to kind of provide a community and almost a mental training center. Like, we all have memberships at Gyms for exercise of our bodies, but we don't really have a place like a membership for our minds. And so this is a community and a training platform for self mastery and psychitecture. All kind of built into.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:50:46]:
Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Ryan. It's been such a pleasure.
RON THIESSEN [00:50:49]:
This has been really interesting. Thanks for joining us.
RYAN BUSH [00:50:52]:
Yeah, I've really enjoyed it too. Thanks so much for having me.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:50:57]:
To connect with Ryan. Visit designingthemind.org where you can pre order this amazing book, become who you are, and download some great free resources for direct access to the community products and programs Ryan talked about in the episode. Just click the link in the show notes. Join us next week when dad and.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:51:17]:
I talk goal setting, specifically how to.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:51:20]:
Hack those New Year's resolutions so they don't feel so impulsive and impossible to stick to. If you've already bailed on those promises.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:51:28]:
You made to yourself for 2024, or.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:51:30]:
You feel so discouraged by the predictable crash and burn of these new Year's resolutions that you don't even bother to set goals anymore, this episode offers a strategy to create the internal proof you need to trust that you can deliver what you promised to yourself. Don't give up on you. You're not done yet. See you next week. Do you have your own story about being versus doing? We want to hear it. Or maybe you have a different perspective on the things we discuss in this podcast. We'd love to have you as a guest. To get started, visit thechangevolutionist.com podcastguest.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:52:13]:
What did you think of this episode? Join the private change evolutionist community chat to share your thoughts. Find the link in the show notes you can now record or text a question through fanlist. Just head over to fanlist.com humanbeingproject and set up an account. Your question, comment, or feedback and our response to it may be featured in one of our new Q A episodes coming soon. Never miss an episode. Get notification to your inbox when a new episode is released. Download to your device or listen wherever you get your podcasts. To get notifications, go to thechangevolutionist.com forward Slash subscribe.
