JOSH THIESSEN [00:00:00]:
I guess for the most part, I've been listening and following what you guys have been doing on the podcast, and I have a difference of opinion on some of the viewpoints around human being versus human doing. And likely, if you've been listening to the podcast since the beginning, you understand that that stems a lot from my dad's ideology growing up and kind of more of a productive viewpoint of how to make things happen. So I wanted to come on the podcast, have a conversation with you guys because you're family and all that, and it's good to catch up anyway, but also to kind of talk a little bit about a differing point of view from what I hear on the podcast a lot.
RON THIESSEN [00:00:47]:
Hey, it's Ron Thiessen. Welcome to another episode of the Human Being Project by The Change Evolutionist, where my daughter Janelle and I explore the difference between being and doing.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:00:57]:
In a world of constant distractions, sky high expectations, and the relentless pursuit of more, we examine what would happen if we made space for more being and less doing.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:01:10]:
This was a fun episode to record. Our guest today is my brother, Josh. Now, I'm the eldest by eleven months, but since we were kids, he's always given off big brother vibes. That's because he's a strategist with a brain the size of Texas, and I'm all caught up in my feels. He called me one day after episode twelve aired. That's the dreams Unleashed episode. And he said, I don't agree, which led to a great discussion between the two of us and eventually today's episode.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:01:41]:
I don't know about you, but I feel like we learn so much when we listen to perspectives that are different from our own, and I'm so grateful that he agreed to be here with us today. In our conversation, Josh explains why he feels it's important to do the work, plan for the future, and be disciplined. He's also the first to admit that being present is difficult for him. If you're someone who likes to anticipate every possibility and has a plan, A-B-C and D, each with their own contingency plan, this conversation is going to hit home for you. So we're going to dive right into Josh's explanation of his pay now, play later philosophy.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:02:23]:
The goal is to do the hard things first. Do hard things and do them first so that when you are rewarding yourself, you'rewarding yourself because of something that you achieved, not just because it feels good to do so. There needs to be a productivity output before there is a being input. Let's put it that way. So the being part, the living in your dreams, the concept of following your dreams, that comes from a position of really being allowed to do so because of hard work you put in in the past. And I think societally even, we're in this place where there's a perception that I should just be able to do exactly what I want, live my dreams all the time, without having to put in the effort. But that doesn't really rationally align with reality, and there needs to be an initiative put forward in order to achieve something that you can then lean back and say, well, I deserve this. So that's kind of the crux of the, we'll call it belief system, whatever.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:03:34]:
I mean, it started from my mom, and if she's listening, hi, mom. But who very much doesn't follow this real viewpoint, in my opinion. But she certainly taught me this pay now, play later. She used to say that to me all the time, and it's really about just doing those things first that get you the reward. At least you've done something before you're wasting your time, for example, or rewarding yourself in some way. I would consider it wasting time because that goes back to productivity roots. I was talking to my wife about this last night, and even the pay now, play later kind of approach was not something that in my young adulthood, that I adhered to.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:04:24]:
I had a lot of credit card debt. I bought things I wanted to buy. I wasted time in jobs, and I don't mean enjoyed myself wasted time. I mean I had opportunities that I let go because I wasn't disciplined and I lost jobs. My young adulthood was not one where I adhered to any sort of pay now, play later type of approach. But one thing that fundamentally changes that, I think, is having kids. And for me, it's really become a viewpoint of preparing myself, preparing my family situation for my children is important. And I mean that from various different standpoints, conveying the same ideology of discipline being a requirement to my kids, economically providing for them.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:05:25]:
There's so many things that are part of making sure that there's preparation and that we're prepared for situations. And I think my viewpoint on doing the work first, let's call it more being a planner, really came into like, it got into fifth gear when I had kids.
RON THIESSEN [00:05:50]:
Are you teaching your kids the pay now, play later principle? Are you specifically focused on making sure that they understand that principle?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:06:03]:
Yeah, I believe that as parents, we set a lot of examples for our kids in how we approach situations. So I have my oldest who's really a teenager now, but just on starting being a teenager, he's 13. So we're really kind of getting into more of what does that mean? When kids are kids, you don't need to overwhelm them with a lot of focus on productivity or discipline and whatnot. You got to allow them to be kids. But certainly as they move into teen years and you're starting to create formative behaviors for adulthood, it's important for them to understand that there's input and output, and if you want the right output, you got to put in the right input.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:06:55]:
I, of course, have a different philosophy because, as you know, I'm a strong advocate for play whenever the heck you want and worry about paying for it later or if ever. But, yeah, when it comes to raising kids, I agree with you that you do need to let kids be kids for sure. And that was kind of the philosophy I had when raising my one child who's now 23. But I don't know if it was just that I was blessed with a child who was already, he already had built in productivity goals. He's just very self motivated. So there was never a need for me to create that structure. Or if he just observed my behavior of playing now and paying later and he just decided that didn't make sense logically, I don't know, but I didn't take that approach with him. And he's a very, I think, well adjusted grown man now.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:07:42]:
So it's interesting. I do think the parental influence is integral, but I think it can go one of two ways. Either your child observes your behavior and says, I like it, I'm going to do it, or they observe your behavior and say, I don't like that, I'm doing the opposite.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:07:57]:
I would agree with that completely. And your son is definitely a very focused individual. And I don't know where the root of it came from, but it may be both. I mean, I certainly know that there were things growing up where I specifically said to myself, that is a parental behavior I will not emulate. I think as people, we grow up with various different examples of how to live our lives, and some of them we take in and we adopt, and some of them we discard because we see problems with it. So who knows? I'm not saying that you caused him to run the other way, Janelle. I'm just saying it could be a combination of both. I'm not so ignorant that I don't understand that my kids may run the other way from any lessons that I'm teaching them.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:09:01]:
So I think the more important part is setting the example and showing success through productivity, rather than just saying that somebody needs to emulate a behavior that you don't ascribe to yourself.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:09:18]:
Okay, well, since we're talking about your kids, when you talk about productivity and setting an example for them of somebody who lives a productive life, where does play or presence come into play with your kids? At what point are you able to be present versus productive? Or do you find a way to balance both? And if so, how do you balance both?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:09:39]:
It's a good question. I don't think that I'm really good at balancing both. I think I plan for events, and even if they're planned events, let's say Christmas morning. Right? So those things happen. You've planned for those events, you have bought your kids gifts, and the tree is up and all these kinds of things. There's planning that's involved there. But for me, then it's moving on to something else, and I've already moved on to something else before we ever get to that moment. So being in the moment is not something that I find an easy thing to do.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:10:27]:
The whole being present thing is more an internal presence where I feel like I'm present within myself, but not necessarily present within the moment that I'm experiencing. I am, however, very reflective. So I absorb the moment and reflect back on it. But in the moment, it's a different kind of thing. And I know this is human nature. Right. We look at the future and we look at the past, and very rarely are we centered in the moment, because our minds just, we're looking for the bigger picture.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:10:59]:
And the bigger picture exists in a variety of memories from the past and a variety of expectations in the future. And the focus that's needed for a crystal clear view of the current moment is something that we're not really well adapted to. And I'm aware that's a shortcoming that I have. I can't get that kind of crystal clear focus on the moment other than for the work that I do. And. And I think that that's more playing a persona, which I think most of us play a persona at various different times. This conversation is another good example. Right? We're having a conversation.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:11:36]:
It's in the moment. We're focusing on what's happening right now, but it's also a persona. It's a persona around communication. We are playing roles here that talk about our method of communication rather than how our mind is actually working.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:11:53]:
That last bit was over my head. I was too busy being in the moment to understand what the heck you just said.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:12:05]:
No, all I'm saying is that there are many times that we pretend, we play a role. We're not necessarily in our head, we're not able to focus in the moment, and yet we pretend that we are. And frankly, I think that that's what meditation is. Or any sort of mindfulness exercise. You are playing the role of someone who's mindful, and the goal is that as you continue to play that role, it will become an instinctual behavior, or at least create more of that instinctual behavior where it's easier to slip into that role. But it's still we're playing a role because it's counter to a human instinctive nature of looking at the past and the future and trying to bridge the gap between the two.
RON THIESSEN [00:12:52]:
So do you see the past, present, and future as three different sections of time? So that we're very good at recalling things from the past and maybe living with regret about those. We're very good at projecting into the future and maybe worrying about that. And then the present moment is like a different section of time. Do you see it that way, or do you see it as the present moment is just not as relevant to our thought processes as the past and the future?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:13:28]:
I think the current moment is a reflection of the worry about what might come caught in a moment that has rational thought based on what has occurred in the past, as lessons learn learned to fuel the moment towards the future. I don't know if that makes sense. It makes sense in my head. But that the current moment is something that we're living with. And bridging, I think, is a good term for it, where we are taking knowledge from our past, whether that's from other people or from our own experiences. And we're using it to understand the current moment so that we can guide ourselves or guide other events into a potential future outcome that we desire.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:14:21]:
But there's a danger in doing that as well, because if your present moment is affected by past regrets or future expectations, which, of course, it always is, it is a practice to not let it be. And it's impossible for it to not be influenced by past and future at all times. But there are glimpses of present moment awareness or being in the moment. And the more of those that we have, the more able we are to care less about what happens in the future. And by that I mean worry, worrying about outcomes we don't want to happen, or things that could go wrong or things like that, and regretting things that have already happened. In other words, they're in the past and they can't be changed or fixed. So the present is the only moment in which you actually exist. You don't exist in the future.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:15:11]:
Even though you're planning for the future in your present moment, you don't exist in the future. You only exist in the present. Would you agree?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:15:20]:
But why is there such a negative connotation to past and future? I don't look at the past as regret. I look at the past as, in a lot of ways, it's. What's the word? When I'm looking back on it fondly, I'm remembering moments from the past, and they may educate me. There's learnings there. There's learnings about what's good, what's bad, et cetera. It's not always regret. It's far from it. Most of it is not regret.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:15:48]:
And most of it into the future is not fear or worry. It's anticipation. So it's not always a negative connotation. And I think we don't have to live in the moment of making sure that every moment is for the here and now. Because what happens is when you focus on every moment being, I want to feel this moment as a good moment, you've usurped any opportunity for you to plan ahead, for you to prepare for the future. Well, maybe not any opportunity. That's pretty general. Some people can certainly do that, and they're excited and in the moment, focusing on what's coming or planning for the future, et cetera.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:16:36]:
But it's almost like there's this dichotomy between living in the moment or planning for the future. And I think it needs to be both, not one or the other. And I would say, if anything, I'm too far down the road of planning for the future, like sacrificing kind of the future moment for that. Which is a shortcoming that I have, that I'm trying to work on. But being present in the moment, especially when it's with other people, with people in your life that matter, that's important. But it's certainly looking at the future through the lens of the past or through the lens of the moment. It doesn't have to be something that's negative.
RON THIESSEN [00:17:27]:
Let me ask you, bringing these two concepts together of what we're talking about, past, present, and future, and pay now, play later, how do you determine when it's time to play? Because you've already paid.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:17:45]:
Yep, exactly. This is the absolute crux. And so I'm extraordinarily self-aware. At least I tell myself I'm self-aware. And most people who know me think I'm pretty self-aware. So I fully understand that this is something that is always a problem moving forward, because there's never a time when I'm going to be able to say, I should rephrase this. There's never a time in my current mindset where I'm going to be able to say, okay, there's a shift. Now, I've always told myself that that shift is inevitable, that it will come.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:18:19]:
So let's talk about, for example, retirement, right? Oh, have I got enough saved for retirement? Am I ready to shift to retirement? But when retirement comes, it will never actually come, because the plan is always to continue to develop a plan for what retirement looks like, right? So there's never a moment to let go. So I recently went on a vacation, first one I've had in a long time that I wouldn't consider to be duty-bound. Right. So there's taking your kids to go see their grandparents. There are work trips that are not vacations, et cetera. So I took a vacation that was truly a vacation and had nothing to do, and I enjoyed that. And there were lots of times when I focused on being in the moment for that. But before that happened, I was extraordinarily guilt-ridden about even having moments that were taking away from the plan, if that makes sense.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:19:25]:
So whether that was cost or time or whatever the case may be, it was taking away from the plan. So it was hard for me to shift into that, but I was able to.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:19:36]:
You mean the retirement plan or. What do you mean?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:19:39]:
No, I just mean from the day to day. To actually let go of how day-to-day behaviors or activities relate to a broader picture and to just focus on where am I right here, right now? And what's going on around me right here, right now? I was able to, but it wasn't something that was easy for me to do. But once I had started the process and once I was on a plane and I was gone, it was something that I could shift into because I was in that situation.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:20:08]:
And you enjoyed it?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:20:10]:
Yeah, yeah. But I did have to plan for it. I had to plan for letting go of the plan. So I had to psych myself up to just go with the flow and live in the moment.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:20:27]:
But you did it. You practiced it.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:20:30]:
Yeah, exactly. So, like I said, I know it's a shortcoming. I know it's a shortcoming of how do I shift there. But it's something that I think just again, it requires practice and planning. So you have to plan for what are you going to change in your own behavior patterns in order to shift into something where you can live in the moment?
I guess just the counterbalance to this is the viewpoint of well, I'm just going to live in the moment is one where you're always constantly, at least in my opinion, you're always constantly wondering about do I have what I need for the next moment? Because am I just using it all now? Whether that's talents, gifts, treasure, whatever the case may be, am I using it all now and will I have anything left? That's a huge amount of faith that you're putting into whatever the universe or God, whatever you want to say, there's a lot of faith that you're putting into that. Whereas I believe that God gives us these talents and treasure and whatnot, for us not to use them without attention to the consequence. We have to be focused on what comes next. It's a different side of a coin, I guess.
RON THIESSEN [00:21:52]:
But in what you're talking about you're really saying what's in the future is finite, it's not abundant, it's a certain measure and you have to figure out how much of that measure you're going to spend at any given moment so that you make sure that you arrive at, I don't know. However long you're going to need provision then you need to make sure that that provision lasts until that time. Am I reading that right? Because that sounds very constrictive to me in terms of I'm always cognizant that this is not an unlimited supply. And yet we have no, we have no way of determining how long that future is going to be. So we don't know how long are we going to need the resource and so how do you even appropriate it along the way because you don't even know how much you're going to need?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:22:53]:
Yeah. So it's a fair point. Let me talk about it from the angle of fitness. I don't know how long I'm going to be alive, but for as long as I'm alive, I would like to be able to move as though I'm able, right, whatever that is. So if I want to be able to hike when I'm 70 years old, I better invest in continuous fitness, building muscle, continuing to treat my body with respect so that it survives to that point. The longer I can postpone having to take some sort of medication the better in my book. So yeah, I don't know when those resources are going to be required or when they're going to run out. But the point is that if I'm planning for the worst-case scenario and the best-case scenario happens, well, great, how have I lost?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:23:56]:
Now, I will say you're right, it is restrictive because I'm constantly thinking about how am I improving my health or improving my...teaching lessons to my kids in meaningful ways or improving my economic situation or whatever, because I'm constantly thinking about these from the standpoint of what happens in the future. It may be that I come into a situation where I'm no longer here and my plan isn't complete, but at least I feel like I'm moving towards a plan instead of consuming and then eventually getting to...like, I would much rather be in a situation where I'm 92 years old and I should rephrase, where I'm 85 years old and dead, but I have resources left over to hand off to my children than to be in a situation where I'm 92 years old and I've been broke for seven years because I didn't plan adequately.
RON THIESSEN [00:24:50]:
Yeah, okay. I can understand that. But how did you get to the place where you said, the vacation that you just took, now it's time to take a vacation. How did you get to the place? Because, like you said, you had to let go. You're going to take vacation. Okay, then that means you're not working, which means you're not fueling, from a financial point of view, the goal, et cetera, et cetera. So how did you get to that place where you said, okay, now's the time? And when you departed on your vacation, did you then shift into the moment?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:25:27]:
Yeah, I think to answer that in reverse, I think I shifted into the moment pretty much right away because I had been preparing myself to do so. As far as why I thought it was the right time, I didn't. I took a chance. I felt like it was something that there's physical health, there's productivity, there's economic health, then there's mental health. And mental health sometimes requires stepping away from all the other ones.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:26:02]:
Mmhmm. Definitely.
RON THIESSEN [00:26:04]:
For sure.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:26:05]:
But it doesn't mean you focus only on mental health because you're doing what you want to do all the time, at the cost of the others.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:26:14]:
I love that you're bringing some focus and some clarity to the concept of being versus doing, because what you're basically saying is it's not being versus doing, it's a marriage between the two. And that is something that I struggle with because my approach has always been play now, pay later. And so I think you are, as you said, you're one swing of the pendulum. You're the furthest end, and I'm probably close to the furthest end, opposite from you.
But I think what you're suggesting is that through your own personal awareness lately and growth that you're seeing that if you swing just a little bit towards center, you will find that there's a balance that, yes, you do need to prepare and plan for the future. And yes, you can look back on the past with either regret, if that's what you choose, or with appreciation for all the things you've experienced, if that's what you choose. That's a mindset, I think, that people adopt or don't adopt.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:27:08]:
And I do think that the present moment. I know before you said that the present moment, people who want to stay in that moment want it to be happy. But I actually disagree, because my perception of the present moment is not that it's happy, but that I am present to absorb the lessons and the uncomfortable things that are in that moment that teach me things that fortify me for the future.
They really don't have anything to do with the past because the past is done, but they teach me so much if I can be observant. And one of my favorite things is nature. Nature, if I decide to go for a walk and pay attention to something as seemingly meaningless as birds chirping or trees swaying or the movement of the wind. But my observation keeps me present and neurons fire like I have so many ideas!
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:28:01]:
And there's so much self-awareness that comes in those moments of present-moment awareness, which obviously doesn't happen all the time. But it's not to feel happy. It's to absorb the experience that is happening to me or for me right now, that is teaching me things for the future.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:28:20]:
Your example there, though, talks a lot about relaxation. Right. So you're in a state of mind that's open.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:28:27]:
You have to be. At some point you do have to relax, yes.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:28:30]:
Yes, sure. No, absolutely. I'm not disagreeing with that. But what I'm kind of getting at is that you were talking about present moment awareness in order to teach you lessons, however, that the time when we reflect as people is not in the moment. And if you're learning a lesson and reflecting on that lesson in the moment, you're missing out on other moments. Right. So you're still going to end up reflecting on the past, because at that night, you're dreaming about what happened during the day. And you're reflecting on how you felt, or you're sitting there at night, and you're thinking about your walk in nature, and it's calming you, and it's still a reflection.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:29:10]:
Yes, but the more moments that you spend in the present, reflecting in the present, which I get, is not fully, I agree with you, it's not fully in that moment. The more adept you become at being present in the moment. Like, it's a split second. Like I'm on a plane with a random stranger who, and I don't feel like talking, and yet he starts a conversation with me, and it turns out that it's leading somewhere. It leads to a place where we connect on something different. And in that moment, I'm very present in the conversation.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:29:39]:
But I'm also aware that this was aligned, that I'm meant to be here in this moment, that I need to fully drop into this experience. That's kind of what I'm talking about. I get that your mind is still going to be working. It's just our human mind. It never stops. It's still going to be working, processing.
RON THIESSEN [00:29:57]:
But the reality is that the only time frame that we actually have access to is the now. So I can only experience things in the now. I can plan, and I can project, and I can make my plans for the future, but when I experience that future, it's in the now. And I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but if I sort of neglect the now because it's not relevant, the past is relevant because of what it taught me, the future is relevant because of where I'm going or where I'm taking my life. But if I in the consequence of that, ignore the now. Like when you were talking about Christmas morning, and you're already off somewhere else. So in your thinking, you're not there in that moment, but that's the only moment you're actually in. So what's happening to that moment? Did you live all of the moments, the appreciation of the kids, the gifts that you have in your life, and then the presentation of gifts to your kids, and all of that stuff that happens on Christmas morning? Did you live that before? And now that it's actually happening, you're onto something else.
RON THIESSEN [00:31:08]:
So how are you being a human being in the now? But you're not here in the now?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:31:14]:
So I have an answer to that, and then I have a question. The answer to that is that, in many ways, I consider myself to be an observer. So the plan is there. The plan is put in place. The plan is realized. I'm observing the realization of the plan, and maybe that's fueling other plans. This kind of goes back to the thing about being in the moment, as well. I'm not saying I'm not in the moment or not cognizant of the day-to-day or the moment, but I'm an observer of it.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:31:48]:
And usually I'm an observer of how that ties into a broader plan that's already put in place somewhere in the web of my mind.
RON THIESSEN [00:31:57]:
Okay.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:31:58]:
So my question is for you, Janelle. From a viewpoint of living in a moment, do you feel that you're able to appreciate those moments when they happen? Are you fully realized in those moments? And then, more importantly, how do I explain this? Okay. I believe that we as humans, this is from my own observational data, that we, as humans, only value or remember moments that are not common. So we make memories of uncommon moments. So you could say, well, the conversation on the plane is an uncommon moment. Right, but what about the common moments of walking that trail and hearing the birds chirp? And you do that twice a week or three times a week or whatever it is, and that happens every time. You cannot recall one of those details anymore because it's all part of a, oh, I went for a walk.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:33:12]:
And normally, when I go for a walk, birds chirp. It changes from, oh, I saw this blue jay to, oh, I hear birds chirp. So, are you somehow able to live in a moment and then extrapolate memories from the common minutiae of the day to day?
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:33:30]:
It's interesting because it seems like they are details you would come to take for granted, like a chirping bird, for example. But for some reason, for me, nature is new every time. I don't know how to explain that other than to say, I go there with the expectation. I go there with the intention of not allowing my phone or other people or disruptions to enter that space. So, I guess you could call that meditation. It is a walking meditation for me. So I'm just open to whatever sounds, smells, feelings are happening in that space. For me, it's a safe space to do that.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:34:15]:
Ideally, I would like to get to the point where I could be that present or that tied to the moment, that I could do that anywhere. That I could do that when I'm feeling scared on a plane at takeoff or when there's turbulence, and I can do it at times like that. When I'm afraid, I also bring myself to the present and feel that fear and feel discomfort. Dad has asked me to speak at his university classes. And in those moments, I force myself to feel that discomfort because I know that it's serving me somehow. But I get what you're saying. Like, your brain is always going to be reflecting on it. Do I reflect on the bird sanctuary after I've been through there? Yeah, I do, because things happened there. Awareness came.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:35:04]:
So I'm reflecting on it in another present moment where I'm not being present. I think it's impossible, and I don't know, but I would guess that it's impossible to be present at all times. But it's the goal to be present as often as possible. Is that what you were asking?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:35:23]:
Um, yeah. Like I said, it's just how do you take those memories with you from the commonality into something that's specific, that carries forward into a memory? And, I mean, it sounds to me like you have a bit of an ability to take the common task and generate a memory from it. I can't do that. For me, it has to be something that's uncommon. I can tell you all the things that I do for work, but it's when we win a deal, because I'm in sales, so it's when we win a deal, or when something extraordinary happens, or when you go on a trip. I mean, this is why people take vacations, right? It's because it's not at home. It is moments that are somewhere else that you remember because they are somewhere else. And someone at some point is going into your hometown to have a vacation there.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:36:25]:
And the minutiae that you see all the time is a vacation for them. Right. And it's because we need something different in order to stimulate our brain to hold on to that memory. I think it's the way the human mind works, but if you're able to kind of capture those moments and they're new and fresh for you all the time, that's...
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:36:47]:
Something I've noticed with this practice of present-moment awareness is that I actually have a terrible memory now. I can't remember anything. Like, I may be able to give you examples based on a hint of an experience through the bird sanctuary, or I've logged in my brain when I go to the bird sanctuary, I, numerous times, have just amazing moments there, but I don't remember things that have happened. People will say, you did this. I don't remember so much because to me, I'm trying to let go of memory because memory keeps me in the past. It's like taking me back over and over again to relive a moment that doesn't serve me anymore. It served me when it was happening. It taught me something that I'm now applying to the present moment and to the future.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:37:30]:
That's my goal. I'm working towards that every day.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:37:37]:
I mean, it seems like that's a little bit of a pipe dream to say, well, I'm going to absorb the moment. I'm going to reflect on it. I'm going to absorb. It's going to become part of my psyche, and I'm going to move forward without reflection on the past. Because it's just too much to contain in the frontal lobe of your mind. I mean, our mind compartmentalizes. Our brain literally compartmentalizes memory in a different space. So you're putting a lot of pressure on, I think it's your prefrontal cortex that lives in the current moment, and you're putting a lot of pressure there to absorb all the lessons that you've learned and update your psyche on an ongoing basis in order to live those moments and reflect and have those lessons learned become part of how you see the future.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:38:31]:
For me, I just need more.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:38:34]:
You're missing right now when you summarize that, though, you're missing the spiritual element, which to me is crucial. The connection that I have with whatever you want to call it that's bigger than me isn't tied to what happens in my brain. Sure, my brain needs to categorize things for function, but does it need to categorize every last single thing? Do I need to plan everything to the nth degree? Do I need to know everything or calculate everything? Or can I just maybe step into the future with some trust? And that's the letting go part that I have spent a lot of time focusing on. And the part that drives you nuts because there's less planning and less paying and more playing.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:39:20]:
I think letting go is great. And if there was one thing I wish I could do, it's that. Because it is a constant barrage of history and future colliding that is challenging in and of itself, and letting go of that stuff would be good. There is a balance somewhere. I'm not saying that I feel like my viewpoint serves me well in every situation. I think there are lots of shortcomings as well, because it's not...because I put myself in a lot of probably undue stress or unnecessary stress. When a variable that's unaccounted for rears its ugly head and has to be adjusted for. Like, those kinds of things where you're just constantly keeping on top of various details, part of it is a challenge, though, and I like it,so.
RON THIESSEN [00:40:17]:
One thing that in listening to you, Josh, I feel sad, because when you say that, you are an observer. So what I heard you say, and correct me if I'm wrong, what I heard you say, is that your ability to plan and to foresee things, you take the responsibility to create experiences for your family or create some kind of happening. You take responsibility to make that happen. But when it's happening, you're just observing. And that sounds really lonely to me. That sounds to me like I created this space for this to happen so that everybody could enjoy themselves and feel whatever they feel. But I'm divorced from this situation. I'm just observing.
RON THIESSEN [00:41:06]:
And in my mind, I'm continuing to plan for the future.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:41:15]:
That is a viewpoint that comes from someone who is more adept at being in the moment than I am. So for me, that sort of sad reflection doesn't matter, because I'm not in that moment.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:41:27]:
And you don't have anything to compare it to.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:41:32]:
Well, any sort of abnormal moment is a moment that gets cataloged. Right? I'm not saying that Christmas morning, the kids are opening presents, and I'm sitting there with a coffee, and it's not like I'm not paying attention to what's going on. But the vast majority of things that I do in my life, I feel like they're not for me. I felt like the vacation I went on was for me, and that is why I felt guilt-ridden about it. And, Dad, you and I have had conversations about this before around kind of the key things that drive me, and one of them is just kind of that purposeness and feeling like there's a purpose.
RON THIESSEN [00:42:20]:
And feeling responsible for everything in your life and every person in your life also, that you feel that very strongly. So when you're talking about the plans and the preparations, these are important things for you to engage with, because it's part of a deep value system for you that you need to be responsible for this kind of stuff, right?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:42:42]:
Yeah. And it makes me wonder what will happen when my kids aren't at home. And I don't feel that purpose from that. But there is absolutely that responsibility, and that's where I kind of find my fulfillment is in creating a situation, planning for a situation, creating a scenario, seeing the purpose come to fruition. I've made it happen. It's kind of what my wife always tells me is that I'm the make-it-happen man. That's the term she always uses. Because that's kind of how I approach things, to just get them done. And part of that is not procrastinating. Part of that is doing the things that are not necessarily fun to do. But a big part of it is also just already understanding what's coming or at least having some plans in place for various different scenarios that could be coming so that when they do, you know how to respond.
RON THIESSEN [00:43:39]:
So you've talked to me a bit about that one of the things you want to do later on, like, I don't know, maybe when the kids are older or the kids are gone or whatever, you'd like to travel and you'd like to be in different parts of the world. If you're following through and doing that, is that paying or playing for you?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:43:59]:
So that's playing. I kind of see anything that comes in those experiences as learning in the moment to some degree, but playing. And this is in my mind. So what you're talking about there is not just traveling, but living within various different cultures for months at a time. And even though I, in my mind, conceptualize that, I don't know if that's something that I can actually do because the amount of letting go that has to happen in order to feel fully absorbed in those moments for such an extended period of time, there's some learning I have to do between now and then in order to be able to accommodate that.
RON THIESSEN [00:44:44]:
But you know what I think is interesting is that it even is a dream that you have, like that you created space internally for you to even dream that. Say, I think that's what I would like to do. And you understand that there are going to be challenges for you to do that. But the fact is that it's something that you think you would really like to do. That's pretty amazing. I think that's fascinating!
JOSH THIESSEN [00:45:08]:
Well, I would say that I don't necessarily think that having a planning first mentality is an enjoyable thing. I don't enjoy focusing on planning just like anybody else. I want to focus on doing things that I enjoy and having fun, but I get very frustrated. Even in our current societal climates in North America, where there's almost a feeling of entitlement that others should provide for me. And in a lot of ways that translates into, oh, the government should provide some sort of service or program that I can use, and my decisions should not impact my ability to have a good life. And I don't subscribe to that at all. I think that that is a huge part of what causes problems in our society, where nobody takes responsibility or accountability for themselves, they're always just expecting somebody else to do it.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:46:17]:
And there's a book, it's Jack Canfield and the success Principles. And in that book, one of the first things he says in there is there's one thing that you have control over, and that's your response to situations. That's it. That's the only thing you can control. You can't control what others do. You can't control what happens to you. You can control how you respond to those situations. And by being prepared, you're able to respond in a more adaptable way than in just relying on others to provide your response for you.
RON THIESSEN [00:46:47]:
Yeah, definitely in the success principles, he definitely talks about your responsibility of what kind of life do you want to create? Well, that is your responsibility, and you can't expect someone else to create the life that you say you want. And I certainly agree with that, too, but I don't know, the way that you're describing...I'm wondering, how will you determine when it's time to play?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:47:22]:
Yeah, I'm fully aware that this will be a problem, and I need to, at some point, figure out when is enough, enough? When have I prepared enough and I can shift? And like I said, I think it's just something where I need to have more practice at it. I am committing myself to spending more time in the future developing, working on things, that I enjoy so that it's not always focused on planning for them.
At least if I'm going to plan for them, then I can enjoy them and then go back to planning for the next thing rather than constantly feeling the need to plan. And frankly, I think part of that is, well, I was going to say parental responsibility, but maybe it's not parental responsibility. Maybe it's self-imposed based on what we've talked about before that, in fact, it's actually I need to step away from the feeling of needing to be responsible for providing for everybody else and focus more on taking care of myself. That's what my intent was with going on a trip, was taking care of my mental health. Stepping away, being able to do something that was enjoyable.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:48:39]:
And maybe that is what it is, is more stepping back from feeling the need to be responsible for others. And frankly, I know that it's actually generating a weakness in my children because it's not teaching them to be responsible for themselves either. Well, with independence, it's responsibility for your own actions, your own decisions. And that's also something that I'm very cognizant of having to allow to happen, allow my kids to be responsible for their own mistakes and own up to them and resolve the issues.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:49:24]:
I'm wondering what the payoff is for you to be the planner. Why is planning and having a plan and having multiple plans for multiple scenarios, why is that so important to you? Is that bringing comfort somehow? Does it make you feel safer? Or what is the reason that you need to have that responsibility ,and the planning? You need to be responsible for everybody and you need to plan.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:49:52]:
I think safety is a good word. Again, we went through some worldwide events where a lot of people didn't feel safe and looked to others to provide safety. And I don't like being in a situation where I'm reliant on others. So I think safety is a good term because it kind of encapsulates a lot and it's preparing for situations so that there's, maybe not safety, but just preparedness. What I gain from it is when situations do arise, I'm adaptable and I have various different tools at my disposal, and I've probably dry-fired a situation several times, there's my gun reference for today, so that I'm able to kind of envision these various different scenarios and what are the outcomes of them. And there's a plan in place for it already. And I think, I mean, maybe it came from growing up and there was not really a lot of plans in place and things were pretty flexible.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:51:07]:
So maybe it's just going back to what you said about your son, Janelle, but maybe it's a situation where that's one of the things I wanted to do different from how I grew up.
RON THIESSEN [00:51:23]:
Do you know anybody in your life who, one of their mantras is work hard, play hard?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:51:29]:
Well, I mean, I work in corporate America, so everybody has that as a motto, right? Most of the time it's not really true. The play hard usually involves heavy drinking, but it's a pretty common motto in most corporations.
RON THIESSEN [00:51:45]:
So what I'm wondering is if you know anybody who has that sort of motto or says that, that you respect the lifestyle that they have, the way that they do things.
JOSH THIESSEN [00:51:58]:
Not personally. Maybe not personally, but there's several people that I've heard in maybe podcasts and things like that that talk about maybe almost over-the-top approaches to self-discipline and whatnot. And I think there's a lot of reward from that. I'm not the kind of guy who gets up at 4:30 in the morning to go running for a marathon distance or anything like that, but I do think that there's, I mean, everybody ticks differently, and that works for some people, and it doesn't work for others. But the fact is, finding ways to exhibit self-discipline is extraordinarily important for everybody. I mean, some people call it make your bed. Jordan Peterson, who's a Canadian, I think he's got something like that, talks about making your bed, and it just is talking about taking responsibility. These are critical things that everybody needs to learn how to do, and I guess I just feel that they're very important.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:53:04]:
But the planning part that you talk about, where you plan for multiple scenarios, and you try to forecast the future so that you feel safe or so that you feel prepared, makes me think that if a situation arises for which you have not prepared, does everything just fall apart?
JOSH THIESSEN [00:53:21]:
No, because there's contingencies.
RON THIESSEN [00:53:24]:
Hey Josh, I really want to thank you for coming on our podcast and bringing a bit of a different look at some of the things that we're talking about. This has been a really good discussion, and hearing the systematic way that you think about these things is really valuable. I still feel like, maybe it's not a sad reflection, but I feel like, for me, if I had to live like that, I would feel like I was missing out on so much, because I would have paid the price for that experience to be had by the people that I love and the people that are around me, but I'm not really part of it because I've made the preparations, and that's all that's required from me. I wonder if sometimes you feel like, okay, that's all I'm good for. I provide, I plan, I get everything in place, but I don't really live it. I'm just there to provide it for everybody.
RON THIESSEN [00:54:15]:
And that would be sad if you felt like that. But I really appreciate your difference of opinion and the different way that you see things. And this concept of pay now, play later, I think was really good for us to talk about and what that looks like in life. And also the concepts which we just touched on at the end here about discipline and doing what needs to be done, those are really important concepts, too. So thanks a lot for being here and for being willing to be transparent and share what you're thinking.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:54:49]:
Do the holidays stress you out? I mean, I know there's some cool traditions, and there's definitely great food. Hello, eggnog. Oh, yeah. I see you - all cold and fancy in the dairy aisle!
But do you feel pressured to meet expectations and show up a certain way for the people you love? If you do, you got to join us next week because we're going to talk about this very thing. How do you prepare for the chaos of the holiday season? Well, by recognizing what causes you stress ahead of time. Is it shopping for the perfect gift? Is it complex family dynamics or just plain old drama?
We're going to explore ways to really enjoy the season this year by staying present, by figuring out what really matters, and by being more self-aware and reflective. So we'll see you next week!
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:55:41]:
What did you think of this episode? Head over to the private Change Evolutionist Community Chat to join the conversation. Find the link in the show notes.
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Ron Thiessen is a practicing psychologist and educator. To apply as a guest on the podcast please visit thechangeevolutionist.com/podcastguest.
