BRIAN GARDNER [00:00:00]:
My experience has been, the less I've needed to have, the more I've been able to do. And that's a pretty wide open statement, right? Like, I haven't had to make as much money, so I have more time to do, you know, insert anything. I can run more, I can have more time with my wife. I could, you know, spend more time at baseball games with my son and stuff like that. And so generally, I think people need to experience the plus side of the minus side, right? Which is, what am I gaining by losing?
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:00:35]:
Today we welcome Brian Gardner, who is an advocate for living a minimalist lifestyle, not just by reducing what he owns or buys, but by being really intentional about what he devotes time and energy to. I reached out to Brian, actually, because of an article he wrote for Becoming Minimalist titled "We Are Defined by the Things We Don't Do." There's actually a link to the article in the show notes, so feel free to check it out.
Brian is an entrepreneur, a designer, and a WordPress expert who lives with his wife in Chicago. And they, like me, are empty nesters who have recently sent their son off to college. He is also an avid runner, and that's where our similarities abruptly end. The reason he said yes to being a guest today is because he wants to help people like you and me see that we can streamline our lives in whatever ways work for us, and in so doing, experience the huge stress relief of living simply.
RON THIESSEN [00:01:34]:
Hey, it's Ron Thiessen. Welcome to another episode of The Human Being Project by The Change Evolutionist, where my daughter Janelle and I explore the difference between being and doing.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:01:44]:
In a world of constant distractions, sky-high expectations, and the relentless pursuit of more, we examine what would happen if we made space for more being and less doing.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:02:04]:
So, Brian, you've written this article entitled "We Are Defined by the Things We Don't Do," And there are so many points that you make here, but the first one I wanted to talk to you about was embracing simplicity by letting go of possessions. You talk in the article here about being a person who had material possessions, who purchased things, who was a consumer, kind of like me. I'm a high producing consumer addicted to a little bit of spending. So how did you go from being someone with that consumer mentality to someone embracing minimalism?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:02:30]:
Well, as most things in life, we have stories, things that come in and out of our lives that sort of determine the trajectory of where we go. And while we weren't obsessively consumeristic, we were never sort of minimalistic. We always were sort of in between. We live in the northwest suburbs of Chicago, a nice neighborhood. And so inside of that neighborhood, you've got really big houses, you've got smaller houses, and we were sort of on the sort of upper end of it. And that was probably because we just wanted to sort of keep up right with the Joneses, as they say. And so when you have a house that costs a lot of money there's a lot of things you need to do to make sure that you continue to...
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:03:07]:
To fill it up!
BRIAN GARDNER [00:03:08]:
Yeah to fill it up and all that stuff. For us though, it got to a point where we were living fine and living comfortably. But then the company that we owned, sales went down a little bit and it started to get a little bit uncomfortable and a couple of months went by and it became a little more uncomfortable. And we were by no stretch in any trouble. But it got to a point where you could feel the physical sort of the weight of it all.
And so my wife and I sat down one night and just talked about say look, I don't know where the company is going. I know where we've been and where it's at and it's still okay. We don't need to jump off anything, like right now. But proactively we just had a conversation and I said, in this case, I think the answer is not to try to make more money but to need less money. And so that was a real big conversation for us because we had a 4000 square foot house. We had built it.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:04:01]:
It was like the dream house. But I was like, at what cost? Right? To what extent do we want to try to keep this? And is it worth either trying to work more, which means less time for family and each other, or just needing less? And so I'm like I think it's a really good idea. There's another neighborhood nearby that's in our development that has significantly lower cost housing. And I'm like, why don't we see if we could sell our house and just downgrade. We can still have same friends, we can still live in the same area. It's still a beautiful house.
And so that was like the first choice, was sort of that we just decided to just...and with that kind of became a domino effect where we're like, okay, well, we changed the mindset of not wanting a big house and not needing to fill a big house. And so through that move in that downgrade or the downsize, we just then we're like, okay, well now we...
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:04:49]:
It's a ripple effect.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:04:50]:
Yes. And so we went through everything as we packed it and said do we actually really need this? Or did we think we need this? Or is this here to fill space or whatever? And so it just really started sort of a heart check where together we just went through and said okay, not only are we going to downsize our house, we're going to start to downsize our life.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:05:06]:
And kind of through that process became its own journey kind of from that point on.
RON THIESSEN [00:05:12]:
How long did that take? What time frame did you observe that in?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:05:17]:
It was a matter of a few months. Once we had that conversation, I think it was within a week or two, we had the house on the market. We sold it right away and then we went right into the next house. And so it was a pretty quick change, but it was a welcome change because we had felt the weight for some time. And once you sort of let go of stuff and start to experience that joy, it's almost like, wow. I wouldn't say it's addictive necessarily, but it's just a good feeling and you want more of it, right? You want to feed that feeling and emotion. And so we did.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:05:46]:
That's awesome.
RON THIESSEN [00:05:48]:
So do you have any regrets about doing that? It doesn't sound like you, but in the middle of the night when you're laying awake thinking about something, any regrets about making that kind of move?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:06:00]:
No, not at all. Again, when it got to the point where I physically felt the heaviness of it all, I'm like, it's not worth our mental health, it's not worth the relational situation. And thankfully, because it's not always the case, thankfully, we had agreement. And oftentimes spouses or partners differ with the way they see things. And fortunately, my wife and I came to that conclusion together and we made the move together and our son just kind of followed suit and he was fine. And the house we moved into was probably my favorite house we've ever been in.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:06:35]:
Oh, cool.
RON THIESSEN [00:06:36]:
Really?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:06:37]:
Wow.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:06:38]:
It probably has some emotional attachment too, because it was significant. It was the first milestone towards a lifestyle that was more liberating, right?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:06:48]:
Yeah. It was called like, the Victory House. We won the victory of life. We victored in life. We made the right decision.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:06:56]:
Yeah, that makes total sense.
RON THIESSEN [00:06:58]:
That's awesome.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:07:00]:
You also talk about finding presence by resisting constant productivity. Now, I know this is a trigger for dad because he is a productivity junkie. He'll admit it. And that is so toxic on some levels. I get that we need productivity and we need goals and we need to be doers to some extent, but there can be an addictive process of productivity and you talk about it here in this article. Do you want to elaborate a little on your journey with productivity?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:07:27]:
So as we all know, there's many facets to sort of minimalism. There's the tangible possessional side of it. There's also the emotional, the mental side of it. And I don't necessarily struggle with productivity, but I work online and so I'm online a lot and kind of in and through that it can be a time suck if you let it. And I often let it. And I'm a perfectionist with the work that I do. As I mentioned earlier, I'm a designer and so I like to design. I'm a creative and so I'm always online.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:07:57]:
I'm listening to music, I'm doing a lot of things that sometimes are and aren't productive necessarily. And so for me, it's less about productivity and just more around just screen time, right? That's something we try to teach kids at a young age, limitations on screen time. And there are times where I've had to literally just close my computer and say, Brian, walk like, go do something different for your mind, go spend time with your wife or go downstairs and see if your son's around or just go for a run or do something like that. Because while the victory was done in the house and some of the material possessions, it wasn't aligning like the last couple of years. It wasn't aligning with my schedule, my calendar, my mental part of it. I'm like, okay, well, I have a smaller house, but my head's still running wild and stuff like that. So I've had to sort of attack this from all facets of life.
RON THIESSEN [00:08:48]:
So my issue with productivity, people around me tell me that I've been productive all my life and for me it's an important thing and it's a measure, it's an internal measure that I hold myself to. But I realized over the last year or so I've been looking at things, I'm saying that internal measure is always measured externally. So what did you produce? What do you have? Those things that are really not about productivity. Well, they're certainly not about being, they're about doing. And what we are looking at and really trying to examine from so many different points of view is what's the difference between being and doing? And do we need more being and less doing?
And I can identify with you about the computer because a lot of the work that I do is on computer and to say, okay, walk away now and do something different because there's always something more to do, right? And one of the things that is very valuable for me is the daily ritual of connecting. So connecting internally, connecting with my heart space as opposed to just my head. Do you have any habits or things that you do? You mentioned you're a runner, so what kinds of things, and maybe running is one of them, do you do to stay grounded, to stay connected internally?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:10:15]:
So two things, one of which is, yes, I'm a runner and so thankfully it's one of those hobbies that I can do that requires not the use of a device, at least from a productivity standpoint. I use my iPhone so I can listen to music, but outside of that, I'm physically removing myself from behind the screen. And so I love running. As I get older, I run less for time and just more to just get out of the house to clear my mind.
And it's funny how sometimes I can spend 6 hours trying to solve a problem and continually trying to do it in front of a computer. Maybe if I just step away...and it's counterintuitive right? Because if I take time away from trying to be productive, I actually might become more productive because I'll clear my mind, I'll clear that space. I'll go out, I'll go for a run, and while I quote, work while I run because I think about things, whatever. There's been several times I'm like, oh, I think I solved the problem while I was out running and not behind a computer.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:11:06]:
And then I'd go back to the computer, I'm like, I could have just saved myself some time by freeing this up sooner. So that's one of the big things. This one's going to sound funny. I actually got a job to help with a lot of this sort of thing because I'm an entrepreneur. And so entrepreneur mindset, I'm a product designer for digital stuff. And so it had gotten to a point where I was trying to create my own thing, my own business, my own whatever. And that's, first of all, really tough in this economy to be successful there. And when you're not successful, you want to just solve that by doing more and trying to come up with another idea.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:11:43]:
And that just means you're sitting in front of a computer 18 hours a day. And it got to a point where I'm like, well, financially, we needed to kind of look into it. But I'm like, I'm just going to go look and try to find a job. Because if I can find a job, then I can get paid for my skill. I can go through a season of not having to worry about bringing home money or being the guy with the idea or doing any of that stuff. I can use my skills in my job because the job that I have is one that I love and with a company that I love working for. And I get paid to do what I'm good at and what I'm skilled at. But then if I want to four o'clock, five o'clock, shut down and just be done for the day.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:12:20]:
And I needed those guardrails. I went through a season where I needed that guardrail. And just the ability to just shut off without caring.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:12:28]:
Yeah, sometimes being your own boss is the work of five people. It's just unrelenting.
RON THIESSEN [00:12:34]:
You mentioned that when you made this decision to downsize, you were in a business and there was putting some pressure on you. Do you still have that business, or was that something you also downsized and moved out of? What did you do about that?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:12:47]:
Great question, because the company that I owned, we sold to the company that I'm working for now. So five years ago, we sold the company. And so I was going to go just kind of meander the proverbial wilderness to try to figure it out. And three years into that journey, when I really hadn't figured anything out yet, it had gotten to a point where I was like, okay. Because I was out to prove something right? There's a phrase in sort of the entrepreneur space, once lucky, twice good. And so I had built and sold the first time, and I needed to prove to myself, or I wanted to prove that I wasn't just lucky in all of that and I wanted to be good. And so I set pressure on myself. I sought out to go do something. It wasn't quite working the way I had wanted it to.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:13:28]:
And then that kind of dovetails into mental health and things that are not really good and healthy for you. And I recognized that pretty early. And I said the trajectory in which this is at I know is not going to be a good one, and so let's try to solve the problem now. And so I reached out to the company that I had sold my business to to just check in and kind of back and forth. They offered me a job. And so that was two years ago. And so for two years I've been working for the company that I sold my business to, which is kind of where we're at now. And so it's a really good and healthy situation.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:14:02]:
I get paid well, I'm happy. I get to play with stuff on the side. And so there's a really good balance in everything I do.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:14:10]:
Wow, it sounds like you made the best choice for yourself. That's awesome.
RON THIESSEN [00:14:13]:
Yeah. Really working for a company like that. Now, does that make it easier for you to live a minimalist lifestyle, or does it make it more difficult? Because many people, they get a good job, pays them decently, and then they start accumulating. So how do you keep that bug from getting back in there? Or is it not a problem for you?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:14:36]:
It's not a problem. We have sort of made that decision that we've chosen not to come back from sort of selling the big house and not needing as much. And we kind of operate under fear, not a bad fear, but the fear that in today's society, you just never know, right? Like, you don't know when you lose your job, things like that. And so while it's a great company and everything's happy today, this economy right now, everyone's losing jobs, companies are downsizing, all of that stuff. And so I'm like to kind of fall back into that lifestyle would only put us more at risk should something happen. And again, the company is great. I feel comfortable with where we're at and all that kind of stuff. And so we're trying to operate now more from a, hey, let's put ourselves ahead, rather than kind of keep afloat because that way something happens, you're a little bit better prepared.
RON THIESSEN [00:15:22]:
I think this is really important for people when we're talking about minimalism, because a lot of people...I hear this talked about the concept of minimalism, and people are like, yeah, well, if you can do it, it's probably a good thing, but not everybody can do it. For them to hear from you, like you made a concrete decision, but it's like you discovered benefits that you would never go back to what previously before you made the decision. So what kind of advice could you give to people if they're thinking, I think I'm just too consumed with consumerism and I need to cut back, but I'm scared now. I'm scared if I do that, what's going to happen? What kind of advice would you give or what advice do you give people when they're talking to you about your minimalist lifestyle?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:16:12]:
I think the first thing I think of is everyone's interpretation of it is different because, you know, we like to emulate, we like to imitate and so you know our mutual friend and kind of how we connected. Joshua Becker at Becoming Minimalist. His version of minimalism is what works for him and he tells his story in the hopes that it inspires other people. And it's not a one-size-fits-all remedy. And so when somebody writes an article that says, well, I pared down to eight things for my wardrobe, well, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to do eight things right. Like it's sort of a figurative concept and so it's all relative. And so I think what I try to tell people is just start slow, just make baby decisions, things that are rather inconsequential, and see how that feels. Not everybody is meant to just one day wake up and say, we're going to sell the big 4000 square foot house we built.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:17:09]:
But it's just small steps, little decisions, hey, can I do without this one thing? Whether it's as small as do we need to go out to dinner tonight and maybe let's make something in and just see how that feels and just experiment and see. And if you have a spouse or partner, communication is huge because one person could go down one path and really want to do a thing or have a lifestyle that conflicts with their spouse because at one point maybe they were aligned and now they're not. Communication, hey, I'm going to make these choices. And so I don't tell my wife how many clothes she should wear. I'm like Joshua now. I've got like seven of the same color T-shirts that I love and I wear them just every day and don't think twice about know, like everyone has their own flavor.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:17:57]:
That's you, not her. Yeah.
RON THIESSEN [00:17:54]:
Yeah, that's interesting because you're talking about something that I really believe in and that's experiments. When people are facing change, that's such a difficult thing to do. But if you break it down to experiments and collect the data while you're doing the experiments, that's I think a really good way to introduce yourself to it.
Like, I was thinking you could do an experiment, say, so this week we're going to just function with only one television instead of four. And it doesn't mean you have to sell the other three. Let's see what happens if we limit ourselves to something and then collect the data. How do I feel about I only have access to one television or there are three of us in the house, and we all have to watch the same thing if somebody's watching? Or doing that kind of nitty gritty questioning about yourself and seeing if it's something that you think you'd even embrace. Because if you can make changes by doing experiments and say, this was not nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be. Yeah, okay. So I'm going to start cleaning up.
RON THIESSEN [00:18:57]:
I'm going to start getting rid of some debris in my life and start getting things crisper and cleaner. I think that would be a great way to start. And like, you're stressing, and I think that's very good, that minimalism is different for everybody, so you've got to figure out what's going to work for you.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:19:14]:
So maybe not like the one time that Kevin and I decided we were going to be overnight minimalists and bought a motorhome and thought we'll just move out of our house and we'll just live in this motorhome. We shouldn't have bought the motorhome first. That was a bad call because we realized shortly thereafter that our visions were totally different. So when you're talking about you and your spouse being aligned, wow, that's huge, because if there is somebody in your life that you're sharing space with, you kind of need to either have some compromise or an aligned vision or something. Without it, it just doesn't work.
So we're talking about how you can indulge in or create a less consumered life for yourself or find a more simplistic way to live. But what is the perk to that? Why do you want to do that? What have you found? If we dare dive into maybe more spirituality or your heart space or the connection of your being, what does that do for you in your heart and mind by reducing the outward possessions and commitments and financial strains?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:20:21]:
I think, and of course, with relationships, there's some extra layers here, but generally speaking, at least for me, my experience has been the less I've needed to have, the more I've been able to do. And that's a pretty wide open statement, right? Like, I haven't had to make as much money, so I have more time to do insert anything. I can run more, I can have more time with my wife. I could spend more time at baseball games with my son and stuff like that. And so generally, I think people need to experience the plus side of the minus side, right? Which is, what am I gaining by losing? Because it's like, oh, if I just go clear out my closet or whatever. If you look at it just at face value, it's like, okay, well, I'm just going to go donate a bunch of clothes that I spend a lot of money on that's X thousands of dollars out there. What's the benefit to me? Well, you've got some freedom, you've got more space, you've got things like that. And so I think people need to understand.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:21:15]:
And this is where, like I said, the communication side within spouses happens because if people start forcing others who aren't ready to do that, then it's really easy to say, hey, you're just taking away from me and what am I? You're not getting anything in return, or whatever. And so we sort of talked about, touched on the spiritual elements of it. A lot of this is mindset. A lot of this sort of works into mental health and all of that, which is basically like you don't lose possessions and then gain possessions. And for some people it's not enough. They need more than just like a mental fix by doing a thing or getting rid of a thing. And for me it's so much just more rewarding to not have to upkeep, not have to account for, not have to pay for the material things. And a lot of times someone's journey could start by just opening up a closet or whatever and just literally just removing things.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:22:12]:
But it also could start by just not adding to what you already have, right? Like, hey, maybe step one isn't like just opening if you're not ready for this yet or you want to experience it, do it slow by just not buying the things that kind of from that point forward, maybe in moderation. Instead of going out to eat six nights a week, it's one night or two nights or just any amount of downsize is good, right? Because then you're like, hey, we went out. Because then you kind of go through a process. You say, hey, we didn't go out tonight. We made food at home and we made a mess, but we had a good time. This was actually joyful. And so you look at it from the positive side versus the negative side and it starts to kind of just kind of percolate through all the things you do on a daily basis. And so for me, it's just been more like that.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:22:57]:
It's been more of an innate kind of navigation through the process.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:23:02]:
Mmhmm. So you're actually creating more space to breathe in all the areas that matter, like in your heart, in your mind, your body and in your physical space because there's just less stuff that you have to manage, less stuff you're responsible for, less stuff you have to store.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:23:17]:
Yes. I don't know if you guys can see there's a sign on my wall right behind me here. There's two signs there. It says Embrace the Good, which is that top sign. That's a Magnolia, Joanna Gaines one. But below that is a custom sign my wife made from a quote that I had said, which is "White space is where the magic happens." And speaking to what you just said, Janelle, that's what I was talking about, that innate part of this, which is when you have that space and you can feel something that you weren't prepared to feel and it feels good, then it just becomes easier to start to think things differently and kind of navigate differently the course.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:23:53]:
Right. So I kind of see this conversation with you as this way of creating. It's one option that you bring to the table, Brian, where you're talking about minimalism. It's one way that you can sort of I don't want to use the word kickstart, but maybe make space for a transition from a very doing, focused mentality to more of a being-focused. Not because doing is wrong, but because the less focused we are on creating the income that then enables the lifestyle, that then keeps up the appearance to everybody else that we're successful and that we're making it. And the less pressure there is to perform all the things that maintain that lifestyle, the more space there is for just breathing and being and enjoying present moments because you don't have 70,000 meetings to attend or all of these products to sell or whatever it is that you have to do to create the lifestyle that you have now committed yourself to. And I also love that you said earlier that you can have a lifestyle that seems like a huge commitment and then you can just change your mind the next day. You can change your mind in a week. You're not tied to that because you decided one time, this is what we're going to be.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:25:04]:
We're going to have outward shows of our prosperity. You can change that. You can change the whole dynamic. And you even talk about that in one of these steps because one of them is it's about social media or it's about social competition. And that is such a driving force for how so many of us live our lives. It's this whole, I want to look better, be better, do better, have more. And there is a lot of pressure for that. So the moment you decide to take more of a minimalistic approach to not just things, but to pressures and expectations and all of that, you create more breathing room.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:25:47]:
Would you agree?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:25:48]:
Yeah, I turn 50 next year. And so one part of the caveat to my story is that I've learned, and there's a lot of parts in life...running and metrics is one of them. As you get older, some things you just stop caring about. It just happens because you just get older, right? Like the competitiveness, like, the way you look and how you smell and how you dress and all this other stuff. Thankfully, I'm like, thank God we didn't grow up in today's society because the pressure that exists with social media, all this stuff, it's prevalent in all of our lives. But. Thank God when we were teenagers, we didn't have to deal with this. But right now, the keeping up with the Jones thing for me is so far removed from the way I view anything now.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:26:33]:
I'm a Christian, and so at church, one of the messages I heard several years ago that I resonated with was it was about coveting and all that kind of stuff. Coveting your neighbor, what they have, whatever. And our pastor said, no matter what anybody else has, you have more than you deserve. And that was like a really precursor to all of this because that's a very spiritual, relational, or religious kind of sentiment, which doesn't necessarily touch what I wrote about in the article. But when you kind of can get to that point where whether you believe in God or not is a different story. But just if you believe the concept of no matter what, you have more. If you can feel good about that in life and sort of believe that. If you're just happy to just be alive and to have a good relationship and a pet that you love or whatever, then all of a sudden, none of it matters.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:27:28]:
Yeah.
RON THIESSEN [00:27:28]:
That is so true. I've traveled in different parts of the world, and some of the places where I've been are really poor, and yet the people are happy. And to see that kind of thing, you know, kids playing in the street, in the gutter where there's sewage running in the gutter, but they're happy, and they figure out their toys. They're not going to Toys R US to get toys. They make their own. And it's pretty amazing to see the resilience of human beings and adaptability and things that we can be grateful for in our lives.
I'm sure you've been in situations where you get a negative reaction towards the idea of minimalism because they're protecting their own consumerism or whatever. How do you respond when people I don't know if I would say they attack you, but when they express disagreement with what you're saying.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:28:17]:
I've been fortunate. I haven't ever really been attacked by any of this. Unlike Joshua Becker that we had talked about. It's his online presence, it's his website, it's the way he makes money and all of those things. I think because of his platform, he's probably in a different position to be attacked and supported just because of his reach. I haven't had, thankfully, to deal with that. I just live by this is my story, and I don't ever want to impose this on anybody.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:28:50]:
So that's usually when you get sort of those reactions is when people feel like they're being force-fed something, whether it's religion or in this case, sort of like lifestyle choices or whatever. It's my story, it's my life. I'm living it. I share it. And if people want to comment one way or the other, they can. But again, I'm not running around telling everybody, you should sell all your things or you should move from your big house or whatever, because that's generally when you get people who are like, who are you to say what I should do? Things like that. I think, like most things, people kind of see it from afar and support you if they're a good friend or a good family member.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:29:26]:
I think a lot of people, like I do, for example, really look at a minimalist lifestyle with a lot of respect. Sure, it can be triggering if someone says, get rid of some things, but I'm not as attached to things in that way. I am more than happy to experiment with that. But the ultimate goal of really only having things in your life that have a purpose to you, that serve you somehow to me just seems like the Holy Grail. If I can get there. Unfortunately, I'm like a stocker. I'm not a stalker that follows people, but like a stockpiler. That's what I mean, a stockpiler!
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:30:04]:
If one thing's on sale, I'll buy ten of them. Sure, I've got stuff all over that's a stash. We're good for months. And that mentality would be really good if I could let that go. I'm not a squirrel. I'm a human being. I can probably make it day to day without a stockpile of stuff. So I think it's a great inspiration that people like you write articles like this, that you offer another alternative, especially when you feel like you're drowning under the weight of all of your responsibilities to maintain a life that you aren't even sure you want anymore.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:30:37]:
But you don't ask yourself if you want it because you're so stuck in the rat race that you just keep doing what you think you should be doing. So I think it's awesome. I love point number five in the article where you talk about cultivating gratitude by directing your focus away from material abundance because you can be grateful, like you said, for literally everything. Everything. The furball that's laying in your lap, that's purring or barking at you or whatever. There are so many things to be grateful for, even when it feels like all is lost. And so cultivating that kind of gratitude. Do you have, like, a gratitude practice? Do you journal or do you just incorporate it into every day?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:31:17]:
Probably more of the latter. I've always enjoyed thinking gratitude starts with attitude and just how you see things and how you perceive things. I think as a quick story, I think one of the best examples of gratitude was several years ago, my wife and my son and I, we drove down to Waco, Texas, so that we could go to Magnolia Market, which is Chip and Joanna Gaines' thing. They have a restaurant called the Magnolia Table. So we get to the Magnolia Table and we sit down and they have these little leather pouches in the booth. And they're for phones. They want you to put your phones inside of this little container so that you just don't doom scroll while you're sitting there.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:31:57]:
Oh, wow!
BRIAN GARDNER [00:31:58]:
And so ours had a little card on there that said, put your phones in here and talk about things you're thankful for. And it was just the three of us, and it was just great to be down there and to be happy and healthy and enjoying a nice meal and just spending time together. So I think a lot of it is it starts with attitude. The way you view the world, the way you view your possessions, the way you view the things you don't have.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:32:22]:
Yeah. And I think when you said the word deserve, I was a little tiny, tiny smidgey triggered by that because I was like, deserve. Say the sentence again. What is it?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:32:32]:
No matter what anybody else has, you have more than you deserve. Now, the lens in which that came through was a very religious and spiritual lens. So it's less about tangible items and stuff like that. So it's not quite the best in this case, but it's something that I remember.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:32:50]:
It triggered a thought for you. I get what you're saying. Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. But it made me think about the there is like a scarcity aspect to the fear of embracing a minimalistic lifestyle. And by minimalistic lifestyle, I don't even just mean less things. I mean less time restrictions, less responsibilities, less engagements, less people that you're responsible to care for, all of those aspects of having a more minimalistic approach. So it can feel in some ways almost scary because it implies to an over-consumer, it implies scarcity. That would mean having less or not enough.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:33:30]:
I think not enough would be the worst thought. What if I don't have enough? What if this never exists again?
RON THIESSEN [00:33:36]:
I'm going to run out. I'm going to run out.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:33:38]:
What if I give this away? And this happened with my husband and I. We were getting rid of a bunch of things because we were moving into a motorhome. No, we weren't. That never happened. But we were going to. And we got rid of all these things. And then, of course, three months later, we decided to stay where we were. And now we're missing all these things.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:33:53]:
And so we're doing the classic, oh, man, we should never have done that. We should never have given that away. Why did we give that away? So then we had to go buy to replace it. Did we have to buy to replace it? I don't know. But we felt like we had to buy to replace it. So there's like a...dad from a psychologist perspective, there is a mental block or there is a challenge there when it comes to reducing the stress. You feel the stress of all the things, and you need to reduce it, but you have resistance to the reducing of it so that's when your experiments come in so handy. And you were talking about them too, Brian.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:34:30]:
Little tiny experiments, not huge life-changing experiments overnight.
RON THIESSEN [00:34:35]:
So let me ask you, if something unfolds and you decide that you're going to move to where your son's going to university, if you decided you were going to do that, does the way that you live now, does that make it much simpler than it would have if you were living the way you were living before? Like, if you decided to pick up and relocate, is that a relatively simple thing to do with your lifestyle?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:34:59]:
It's simpler than it would have been. I mean, moving cross country in any context is always a more difficult thing. But I will say this, and I read an article Joshua wrote, I think it was for Forbes, actually, several years ago, and this will as we head into our next house, because the house that we have now is decent size, Zach's going away, and so we're essentially going to be empty nesters. And so I told, like, wherever we go next, whether it's here locally, whether it's out to Phoenix or whatever, the one thing I want us to think about is something Joshua said, which is, don't buy or build the house that you can afford. Buy or build the house that you need. Because you can afford a certain thing. And that would only be at that time, which is the same thing that happened to the big house that we built. We could afford it, but we didn't need it. Right? And there's a huge difference there.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:35:47]:
And so I told her, I'm like, I want a smaller house. I want to have more ability to spoil him and grandchildren and things like that, than not. So a little bit more on the sort of proactive side and the conservative side of life. And especially as you get older, you just never know health and how long people are going to live and stuff like that. Now we're just kind of entering a more cautious sort of way of looking at it all anyway. So I think it'll just kind of naturally happen.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:36:14]:
Well, the bigger the house, the more there is to maintain. That's one of the reasons my husband and I wanted to downsize. Just less and less and less to know the smaller your living space, really. Brian, did you have anything else you wanted to share with our listeners or final thoughts?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:36:28]:
I guess, if anything, and I'm asked this often, whether it's in this sort of lifestyle choice or as I do a business or do just anything in life, and as a runner, this is very metaphorical. It's to break through the wall. In running, when you run a marathon, you get to mile 17, 18, there's a thing called the wall, which is like where it's at its hardest and most difficult, and you want to just throw the towel in and stop doing what you're doing. And so as marathoners know, once you break through that and get to the other side of it, then you reap the rewards of sort of that staminance and whatever.
And so with life, I always like to just encourage people, like, when it gets tough, is to try to work through it and to be diligent and to sort of be prepared that that might come, but also know how to get through it. Because usually on the other side of that is where all the reward is. And so even as we're talking about living the minimalist lifestyle, it's like, this feels uncomfortable. I'm not ready for this.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:37:22]:
I don't want to do this. And just kind of just hanging with it and just really trying to sort of do what you believe in and sort of think of it more of a long haul. Life is a marathon, not a sprint. Sort of a thing.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:37:36]:
Yeah. Discomfort doesn't always mean that it's a bad thing. Sometimes we have to kind of lean into the discomfort a little bit.
RON THIESSEN [00:37:43]:
One other thing I'd like to ask you about. We talk a lot in our podcasts and in the work that we're doing about spirituality. Spirituality as opposed to religion, not necessarily religion, although it certainly could be. And I'm wondering, has this made a difference in your spiritual life in the way that you think about life, think about living, think about others, think about whatever? Can you identify any specific changes that you feel have happened in you spiritually as a result of this?
BRIAN GARDNER [00:38:15]:
I think it was more directionally the other way. The spiritualness helped sort of open the door and pave the way for the minimalist thing. Because at a core, I've been a Christian for 20 some years. The idea of he who is the best is the least and stuff like that. Just all of those sort of mindsets, we don't need as much. And again, the message that I had talked about with you have more than you deserve. It's been easier to lean into this lifestyle. Not that it's a requirement by any stretch.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:38:43]:
It's been easier to lean into this because not only does it feel better and our family gets to experience the things, in our minds, it's sort of backed more by the spiritual side of it. And so it's been easier to lean into this minimalist lifestyle because we know the dangers of leaning into material possessions and wealth and prioritizing the wrong things and whatnot.
RON THIESSEN [00:39:09]:
Well, thank you. This has been a really great conversation, and I really appreciate you giving us the time to come on our podcast.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:39:17]:
You made my day when you said, yes, Brian. Made my day.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:39:20]:
Oh! Well, I think you had said I was the first person you had reached out to. Like, in cold sense.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:39:25]:
Yeah, you made my day.
BRIAN GARDNER [00:39:26]:
Don't let that set precedent. It doesn't mean everybody will.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:39:35]:
I know. I know that now, Brian. I know that now.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:39:40]:
Well, I hope you're ready for a doozy next week because we have a very special guest. He is a father, a provider, and a realist who strictly adheres to a pay now, play later philosophy. And he's my brother Josh! That's right! Next week's episode is a family affair, but it's actually not all fun and games. As we'll discover in the discussion. Josh's strict adherence to a productive lifestyle and the burden of responsibility he carries to plan for everyone and everything doesn't leave him a lot of time to enjoy the moment.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:40:12]:
Throughout the conversation, we look for a way to balance doing with being. Can we be both future-focused and present and available in each moment? We'll find out next week.
JANELLE THIESSEN [00:40:27]:
What did you think of this episode? Head over to the private Change Evolutionist Community Chat to join the conversation. Find the link in the show notes.
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Ron Thiessen is a practicing psychologist and educator. To apply as a guest on the podcast please visit thechangeevolutionist.com/podcastguest.
